Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii 40

[3DDave]

Another wild fire sweeping through a residential area - it leads me to wonder if exterior sprinkler systems, particularly for roofs, would be sufficient to slow the progress of such fires.

I noted a multi-story apartment or hotel that was generally intact, suffering some interior fire which the sprinkler system may have stopped. The roof was untouched simply from height and the exterior which appeared to be brick - likely the windows or their frames failed in the heat. It was surrounded by ash.

As they are on the ocean the supply of water suitable to the use is well available as long as power for pumps is available. Besides electric pumps, pumps directly driven by diesel and the possibility of adding fire boats pumping water to the system seems worth considering. It's along the ocean so additional salt water should be more acceptable than fire.

 

[TugboatEng]

I read 13k for population. ~100 are confirmed dead. 1100+ are missing. They are missing because there are no remains. The deceased count is going to increase dramatically, soon. 10% is a likely case.

 

[dik]

Maybe powerline...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-did-maui-fire-sta...

looks like the link has been deleted...

This is what it said...

"The earliest blaze reported by Maui County officials was described as a brush fire in the Olinda Road area of Kula, a town in the island's Upcountry region, where wildfires eventually burned through about 700 acres and claimed 19 homes. On Tuesday, Aug. 8, Maui County shared the first details about a Kula brush fire that had forced evacuations early that morning.

A video clipped from security camera footage at the Maui Bird Conservation Center — located along Olinda Road in Makawao, directly adjacent to Kula — appears to show a flash in the woods around their property at 10:47 p.m. on Monday, Aug. 7. The Washington Post originally reported on the video, which the conservation center shared to its Instagram page over the weekend. In that social media post, Jennifer Pribble, a senior research coordinator at the organization, suggested the flash may have happened after a tree fell on a power line during strong winds.

"I think that is when a tree is falling on a power line," Pribble said on Instagram. "The power goes out, our generator kicks in, the camera comes back online, and then the forest is on fire.""




-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[3DDave]

That was one source of the several fires that day.

The largest mechanical failure appears to be power poles dropping across roadways, backing up the escaping traffic.

 

[Debirlfan]

Where I live, there are sirens located around town. Most often, they're used to announce winter storms and parking restrictions, but they can announce ANY sort of emergency, whether it's a storm or the local nuke plant melts down. Why would they put up sirens without speakers?

I've read some reports that the schools sent the kids home mid-day (generally to empty houses, as parents were working.) Anyone know if that's true?

Sadly, in addition to those who burned, it's likely other people washed out to sea and will never be found.

 

[waross]

Hi Dik.
By cause, I meant the human cause. The confusion and lack of planning etc.
That is;
"If an emergency happens again for whatever reason and from whatever cause, can we do a better job of protecting people?"
Re; The power line.
It is reasonable that a fire may have been started by a falling tree.
The power poles down across roadways?
Did the wind bring them down, or did the fire bring them down? Possibly a combination.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[IRstuff]

Dik, seems like your link is broken, but there's an article with a similar link at

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisc...ahaina-hawaii-wildfire/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1h

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[dik]

Thanks IRS... I tried the link and it's been removed, so I posted the information that I had copied from the link.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

No one seems to hold the president responsible for the lack of action on climate change.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[hokie66]

If you mean his efforts to destroy the US economy on the pretense of fighting climate change, I agree that he needs to be held responsible.

 

[SwinnyGG]

If we don't find the cause, we won't find a solution and similar will happen again.

Fully agree.

Blaming the death toll on one guy who made a decision in a no-win scenario is completely ignoring the fact that the flawed warning system created the no-win situation in the first place.

 

[TugboatEng]

Don't put politicians in positions or responsibility... Were there any requirements or qualifications for the job?

 

[Just Some Nerd]

Don't put politicians in positions or responsibility... Were there any requirements or qualifications for the job?

In other words...only trust the experts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[3DDave]

Herman Andaya, then Maui’s top emergency management official, was in charge of the warning system in 2018 when a previous wildfire there also saw no warnings and the locals there asked why the sirens weren't used. Apparently the previous fire was uninformative.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/24/us/m.../index.html?cid=external-feeds_iluminar_yahoo

That was 1500 acres, close to the present 2100 acres.

and in 2019, Maui saw 10,000 acres burn

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/12/7410...ui-evacuated-after-brush-fire-rages-in-hawaii

He tried nothing and it didn't work.

See page 7 (13 in the pdf) of

https://dod.hawaii.gov/hiema/files/2022/03/Hawaii-State-CEMP-FEB-2022.pdf

and note the lack of correlation between drought and wildfire.

In the 2020 Maui plan Lahania was at high risk from wildfire (p484 and 503)

https://www.mauicounty.gov/DocumentCenter/View/125977/2020-Maui-County-Hazard-Mitigation-Plan-Final

The rest of that 2020 assessment is damning and the head of the Maui Emergency Management Agency knew it.

 

[TugboatEng]

In other words...only trust the experts?

"Experts say". You may as well call them anonymous sources. No credentials, no repercussions when they get it wrong. The expert simply makes the most shocking claim to sell newspapers. The media determines who the "experts" are.

Everyone needs to do this exercise. Take a subject you're very familiar with, maybe an expert on, and look up news stories on it. I will not attempt to steer your conclusions.

 

[TugboatEng]

Here is the most comprehensive evaluation of Andaya's expertise.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/was-mauis-emergency-operations-chief-in-over-his-head/

It seems that it was understood that he was a political appointee as far back as 2017 and there have long been serious questions about his competence. I guess with title doesn't come expertise.

Andaya's responses about experience were like an audit I was recently involved with. There were lots of vague answers with no receipts. Surely Andaya should be able to produce a certificate for a training attended or even a receipt for a hotel room in the vicinity of a training.

 

[cranky108]

Growing up in the Midwest, like many communities, they were offered Federal government money to install Civil Defense sirens, but also like many other communities they paid extra for a multi use siren. One tone was for Civil Defense, and another for tornado warning. Sadly many communities did not do that, and/or let the sirens go into disrepair.
Also the state does have the authority to mandate reliability for cell service providers, or to revoke the business license.
The same goes for the electric service providers, but that becomes very tricky to shut them down.
The state also has the ability to set building codes, as well as the local government.
So there is a lot that can be done, but the question is will they? Likely not.

 

[TugboatEng]

The total incompetence continues.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/maui-challenge-of-finding-missing-people-wildfires

Apparently, Paradise has similar numbers of dead and missing. Local officials published a list of the missing and through self-reporting the number dropped from 1300 to a few dozen. Hawaiian officials refuse to release a list of the missing.

"This ground is hot, man".

 

[waross]

Also the state does have the authority to mandate reliability for cell service providers, or to revoke the business license.
The same goes for the electric service providers, but that becomes very tricky to shut them down.

That brings back a humorous memory.
In a small island community, the phone company was owned and operated by the National Government on the mainland.
Power was supplied by a small locally owned diesel power plant.
For some reason, the power company was late paying the phone bill and their phones were cut off without warning. (This was before cell phones)
Then for some reason, the phone company was late paying the power bill.
Power to the phone company was cut without warning.
Soon the batteries went flat and the whole community was without phones for several days until the phone company bureaucracy could cut a check and deliver it to the island.
The inconvenience of no phones was offset somewhat by the collective "Gotcha" to the government phone company.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[waross]

All this talk about experts.
Expert is a compound word;
Ex- a has been.
Spurt- a drip under pressure.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[hokie66]

The definition of expert I like is 'a guy from out of town with a briefcase'. Maybe not as applicable now, when it would be 'a person from out of town with a laptop'.

Back to Tug's link. So Hawaii is refusing to release of list of the missing, but that exact thing was done in California. This whole privacy thing is confusing, and stupid.