Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
-
Congratulations waross on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Power Planner experience 3
- Thread starter COMAPRO
- Start date
jbartos
Electrical
- Jan 15, 2000
- 6,440
- 0
- 0
Suggestion: There is a lot of it on Web, e.g.
etc. for more info
etc. for more info
MarkE is a contributor to this board. His site is He has a discussion of the practicality of the approach. Also search on NASA/Nola device.
Then, grab your wallet and run in the other direction.
Then, grab your wallet and run in the other direction.
- Thread starter
- #4
I need to know is the experience from somebody that has tried this product. energysmart.com are the manufacturers, no way they can give an independant judgment of it . you see myself I have tried the product and no way I can get those wonderful percentage savings they mention in the webpage like 40 to 50 % . the most I got was 5 to 6%
power2engineer
Electrical
I have located yet another company that is claimed to be based on the same concept They call the product Performance controller.
Then there is they are strictly a PF controller they also claim to save 20-30% in energy savings and guarntee the savings. I don't know how real these claims are. If these products are so real why are they not widely used.Any experts on this subject can shed some light?
Then there is they are strictly a PF controller they also claim to save 20-30% in energy savings and guarntee the savings. I don't know how real these claims are. If these products are so real why are they not widely used.Any experts on this subject can shed some light?
- Thread starter
- #7
Busbar , if you mean . that is a very good site but marke does not refer to high efficiency motors ? Is no one there that has tried the Power Planner with success in real life , I mean savings percentage of over 10% and that is not related to the energysmart.com people ?
Something else , has some one take a look of ? I would like to read some comments on that too? thanks.
Something else , has some one take a look of ? I would like to read some comments on that too? thanks.
-
1
- #8
Hello Comapro
The bottom line is that you can only save a portion of the energy being wasted.
The web site that you mention states that many motors are running at about half load. This could be true, and continues that because of this, "huge amounts of excess energy are wasted" I would suggest that this is not the case. If you look at the efficiency curve of induction motors, you find that it does not fall significantly till well below half load. In fact, under some circumstances, from an efficiency stand point, you are better to run a larger motor at reduced load than a smaller motor at full load!
Your figures for savings are not unrealistic in the right applications. Some applications will result in negative savings.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
The bottom line is that you can only save a portion of the energy being wasted.
The web site that you mention states that many motors are running at about half load. This could be true, and continues that because of this, "huge amounts of excess energy are wasted" I would suggest that this is not the case. If you look at the efficiency curve of induction motors, you find that it does not fall significantly till well below half load. In fact, under some circumstances, from an efficiency stand point, you are better to run a larger motor at reduced load than a smaller motor at full load!
Your figures for savings are not unrealistic in the right applications. Some applications will result in negative savings.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
power2engineer
Electrical
Marke & Jbartos,
Looks like you 2 have the most experience & knowledge in this area. Although Mark's site deals in great deal on this subject.
I am looking for direct answer to direct question of COMPARO DOES ANY BODY (OTHER THAN THE MANUFCATURER) HAS EXPERINCE USING POWER PLANNER & ITS EFFECTIVENESS AS ENERGYSAVING DEVICE?
How about the other vendors with similar products. DO they do the job they claim?
Thanks
Looks like you 2 have the most experience & knowledge in this area. Although Mark's site deals in great deal on this subject.
I am looking for direct answer to direct question of COMPARO DOES ANY BODY (OTHER THAN THE MANUFCATURER) HAS EXPERINCE USING POWER PLANNER & ITS EFFECTIVENESS AS ENERGYSAVING DEVICE?
How about the other vendors with similar products. DO they do the job they claim?
Thanks
- Thread starter
- #10
hi Marke , thank you for your comments. When do you really mean "under some circumstances, from an efficiency stand point, you are better to run a larger motor at reduced load than a smaller motor at full load! " ? because that is something new for me. I thought , it was the other way around .
and you power2engineer , I back you up completely with you request. I just wonder if some one has investigated all these impressive testimonnials of energy savings ?, for example when you look into energysmart.com
and you power2engineer , I back you up completely with you request. I just wonder if some one has investigated all these impressive testimonnials of energy savings ?, for example when you look into energysmart.com
Hello Comapro and power2engineer
I have had considerable experience with the technology, but not with the brands that you mention. I was heavily involved with product development and commisioning in the early days of the technology, so I am talking from experience, not just theory.
Good luck with your quest to find some real recommendations.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
I have had considerable experience with the technology, but not with the brands that you mention. I was heavily involved with product development and commisioning in the early days of the technology, so I am talking from experience, not just theory.
Good luck with your quest to find some real recommendations.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
- Thread starter
- #12
Hi Marke, it is a pitty that you do not have any experience with the Power Planner. Dan Bach , the owner of energysmart.com has patented the improved technology from Nola. you can read about it in the webpage from patent office. the thing is that even that I followed very careful their instructions how to calibrate the P.P. and what application is right for , I never get those beautiful savings they mention
EnergyEngineer
Electrical
Comapro,
What do you need to know about the power planner. I have more than 35 of their units attached to various motors in my plant. Which Planner do you have? Power Planner I, II, or III. Also what is the size of the planner (10-850amps). What type of motor are you using it on? I will be glad to give you some helpful tips on getting the most energy savings available.
What do you need to know about the power planner. I have more than 35 of their units attached to various motors in my plant. Which Planner do you have? Power Planner I, II, or III. Also what is the size of the planner (10-850amps). What type of motor are you using it on? I will be glad to give you some helpful tips on getting the most energy savings available.
jbartos
Electrical
- Jan 15, 2000
- 6,440
- 0
- 0
Suggestion to COMAPRO (Industrial) May 20, 2003 marked ///\\Hi Marke, it is a pitty that you do not have any experience with the Power Planner. Dan Bach , the owner of energysmart.com has patented the improved technology from Nola. you can read about it in the webpage from patent office. the thing is that even that I followed very careful their instructions how to calibrate the P.P. and what application is right for , I never get those beautiful savings they mention
///The mentioned beautiful savings may be under worst conditions, i.e. the most energy wasteful conditions. Apparently, these most energy wasteful conditions are not everywhere.\\\
///The mentioned beautiful savings may be under worst conditions, i.e. the most energy wasteful conditions. Apparently, these most energy wasteful conditions are not everywhere.\\\
-
1
- #15
HarryDampers
Electrical
It may well be my imagination but I get the feeling that some of these posts are cleverly disguised product promotions.
It would be nice if these guys would drop the act and give us some hard evidence that these devices work and actually save a substantial amount of energy in the average installation.
Unfortunately in the twenty odd years since this device was patented (as I understand it) by Frank Nola ....it has never ever lived up to the claims of its promoters .
Why is it that this device is ONLY being marketed heavily by companies on the fringe of electrical engineering ?? . Do the boffins at Siemens , ABB or Allen Bradley not know enough to take advantage of this incredible money saver ??
The answer is that in the average installation .....with a correctly rated Motor ....there is just not enough energy to be saved .The companies mentioned above KNOW that ...and will not risk their reputations by overpromoting a feature that has dubious advantages.
In other words , customers are being misled .
or perhaps conned would be a better word .
It would be nice if these guys would drop the act and give us some hard evidence that these devices work and actually save a substantial amount of energy in the average installation.
Unfortunately in the twenty odd years since this device was patented (as I understand it) by Frank Nola ....it has never ever lived up to the claims of its promoters .
Why is it that this device is ONLY being marketed heavily by companies on the fringe of electrical engineering ?? . Do the boffins at Siemens , ABB or Allen Bradley not know enough to take advantage of this incredible money saver ??
The answer is that in the average installation .....with a correctly rated Motor ....there is just not enough energy to be saved .The companies mentioned above KNOW that ...and will not risk their reputations by overpromoting a feature that has dubious advantages.
In other words , customers are being misled .
or perhaps conned would be a better word .
Hello HarryDampers
Well said!!
I would add, that it is not just with correctly sized motors that there is nothing to be gained. The claims made are often that many motors are oversized, therefore there is lots of energy to be saved. Look at the efficiency curves of induction motors and it becomes obvious that the motor needs to be operating at less than about 30% load for the efficiency to fall significantly. In other words, you need to be using a motor, not 50% oversized, but 200 - 300% oversized before you will begin to achieve results, small that thery are!!
Additionally, claims of new technology working significantly better than the original technology proposed by Nola and others can not alter the basic characteristics of the induction motor, just optimise the voltage applied to minimise the losses occuring. You can only save part of what is being wasted, or to put it another way, you can sometimes improve the operating efficiency of the motor by optimising the voltage applied.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
Well said!!
I would add, that it is not just with correctly sized motors that there is nothing to be gained. The claims made are often that many motors are oversized, therefore there is lots of energy to be saved. Look at the efficiency curves of induction motors and it becomes obvious that the motor needs to be operating at less than about 30% load for the efficiency to fall significantly. In other words, you need to be using a motor, not 50% oversized, but 200 - 300% oversized before you will begin to achieve results, small that thery are!!
Additionally, claims of new technology working significantly better than the original technology proposed by Nola and others can not alter the basic characteristics of the induction motor, just optimise the voltage applied to minimise the losses occuring. You can only save part of what is being wasted, or to put it another way, you can sometimes improve the operating efficiency of the motor by optimising the voltage applied.
Best regards,
Mark Empson
jbartos
Electrical
- Jan 15, 2000
- 6,440
- 0
- 0
Suggestion to the previous posting: There seems to be a lot of truism in statements like:
"" You can only save part of what is being wasted, or to put it another way, you can sometimes improve the operating efficiency of the motor by optimizing the voltage applied.""
Yes, this is true; especially, if a motor has a very high efficiency. Then, there is not much room left for energy savings, if that motor is properly applied and with an appropriate load, i.e. stable and continuous load.
Some room for energy savings may be left in switching from the rotary motion to the linear motion, e.g. from rotating machinery to linear motion machinery, if the mechanical application favors it. Then, the motor-load set efficiency is scrutinized.
"" You can only save part of what is being wasted, or to put it another way, you can sometimes improve the operating efficiency of the motor by optimizing the voltage applied.""
Yes, this is true; especially, if a motor has a very high efficiency. Then, there is not much room left for energy savings, if that motor is properly applied and with an appropriate load, i.e. stable and continuous load.
Some room for energy savings may be left in switching from the rotary motion to the linear motion, e.g. from rotating machinery to linear motion machinery, if the mechanical application favors it. Then, the motor-load set efficiency is scrutinized.
COMAPRO,
I am surprised you have managed to save as much as 5 or 6%. Based on feedback from others (second hand information, not from practical experience) 2 to 3% appears to be the norm.
Great post HarryDampers. Sounds like a network marketers dream come true! I suspect some day soon, you'll have someone from AMWAY (or similar) knocking at your door with one of these 'you beaut' devices under his arm.
Regards,
GGOSS
I am surprised you have managed to save as much as 5 or 6%. Based on feedback from others (second hand information, not from practical experience) 2 to 3% appears to be the norm.
Great post HarryDampers. Sounds like a network marketers dream come true! I suspect some day soon, you'll have someone from AMWAY (or similar) knocking at your door with one of these 'you beaut' devices under his arm.
Regards,
GGOSS
Oooops, PS to HarryDampers, others may also be interested.
Rockwell Automation/Allen Bradley and for that matter many other manufacturers of soft starters offer the energy saving feature within some of their soft starter product. unlike the others however, the big boys are far too smart to make unsubstantiated claims about the amount that can be saved.
Regards,
GGOSS
Rockwell Automation/Allen Bradley and for that matter many other manufacturers of soft starters offer the energy saving feature within some of their soft starter product. unlike the others however, the big boys are far too smart to make unsubstantiated claims about the amount that can be saved.
Regards,
GGOSS
HarryDampers
Electrical
I read the section in the AB manual yesterday . It sounded as though it was something that they had put into the software just in case a prospective purchaser compared them unfavourably with someone that had it .
Lets be fair , many starters have the feature ..........but NONE of the mainstream manufacturers are foolish enough to base their whole marketing campaign around some very flimsy claims .
That must tell you something .
Lets be fair , many starters have the feature ..........but NONE of the mainstream manufacturers are foolish enough to base their whole marketing campaign around some very flimsy claims .
That must tell you something .
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question