Quality of Structural Drafting Work 6

[Atomic25]

If you have technical structural drafstmen working for/with you, what type of quality work are they putting out? aka, how much hand holding do you have to do to get a set of drawings out that are understandable and free of a dimensional nightmare? I'm trying to gauge whether or not I'm expecting too much.

I recently changed jobs and I'm shocked to find so many problems with the sets these guys are putting together. They require the engineers to basically babysit the draftsmen. Should I really have to go through the set and make sure dimensions are snapped to column grid lines? Spelling errors galore are corrected? Section cuts and detail markers easy to follow? I'm almost thinking of leaving this company because of the liability to my PE license. They just had a $30,000 claim (not on my license thank god) because they couldn't get an elementary steel dimension correct.

Any words of wisdom are welcome.

 

[Atomic25]

I always thought the soul of engineering was engineering. Draftsmen were just the specialized guys who took the design from the engineers and communicated it to the field on paper.....I almost feel like I'm quoting a line from Office Space.

If they cant communicate the design without incurring an E&O I'm not really so sure why they exist.

 

[KENAT]

Call me picky, but when you look at the biographies of a lot of the old time 'great' engineers from the first half of the last century they worked their way up from draftsmen.

Is this just because Engineering education wasn't as developed yet?

Or did some of the discipline and skills/techniques required of Draftsmen make them better Engineers?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Qshake]

KENAT - I am still a hold out from those days, though no great engineer by any stretch.

At our company, we worked on the board with the immediate supervisor the chief draftsman. After a period of detailing we moved on to designer work and then to engineering work.

Personally, I think we should continue that as the one thing that is most lacking of graduates is how structures fit together and being on the board (even computer) is a good way to figure it out.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[Atomic25]

We put fresh graduates in drafting positions because they would otherwise be overwhelmed (and us overwhelmed by questions) in purely engineering positions. The best guys we're seeing out of school can barely comprehend tributary area...their head would pop if I had them design a 6 story composite beam building.

 

[myopia]

They're not draftsmen any more. They're designers. We engineers have to respect their competence.

 

[Lion06]

Atomic25-
I hope you are exaggerating a bit when you say, "the best guys we're seeing out of school can barely comprehend tributary area..."

 

[rb1957]

i'm just looking over a job we did 10 years ago, drafted by hand. i find it quite amazing that someone can visualise a complex assembly and draw different views on differnt sheets (and get it mostly right !).

today we're spoilt with CAD tools doing this for us, and i think we lose touch with the reality of the assembly 'cause we don't have to think about it as much.

 

[samdamon]

Kenat, after graduating from engineering school I spent the first six months of my first engineering job working under a very senior engineer and assisting in the design of simple, small parts of larger structures, and also drafting redlined prints for him and the rest of the office. Learned a lot.

 

[3doorsdwn]

What’s driving me nuts (where I work) is all these 30-40 year designers who don’t produce. It’s not so much quality as it is quantity. But where it really climbs on your nerves is when these guys start popin’ those double chins about how great they are. Like one of my favorite coaches said: “If your going to talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.”

 

[rb1957]

hummm ... I wonder how many years experience 3doorsdwn has ? and how old he(assumed) is ? ... my guess is <10 and <30 respectively.

Is it possible that when these experienced designers are given a task that they see more of the issues associated with the job or so produce a good job (doesn't need rework) in a longer time than it takes someone to simply put cursor to CRT (ok, LCD screen these days) ?

Is it possible that they aren't as great as they think they are, but your management keeps them round 'cause they're chicken (to lay them off) or into social welfare or maybe into trying to teach you young turks (assumed) something from their experience ?

Granted it is probable thet they hardened cogentative processes (at 50 - 60 years old) don't adapt well to the latest CAD tools. Granted it's possible that they've had 1 years experience 30 times over (lot's of time, not much experience).

I have to believe that your managment doesn't think there's a problem (or maybe they just don't think !). Personally I'd keep these older guys of the LCDs and in more of a leadership/guidence role.

but that's just my 2c ...

 

[KENAT]

myopia,

If you're lucky they're designers, in some cases they're just CAD Monkeys/Jockeys.

They know all the buttons but know diddly about engineering, drawing preparation etc. The equate more closely to tracers (I admit they were just before my time) than to drafters.

However I'm not really a structural guy so should probably recluse myself from this subject.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[KENAT]

Make that recuse myself.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[3doorsdwn]

rb1957,

"hummm ... I wonder how many years experience 3doorsdwn has ? and how old he(assumed) is ? ... my guess is <10 and <30 respectively."
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FYI, I have 15 years experience and am 37 years old.

"Is it possible that when these experienced designers are given a task that they see more of the issues associated with the job or so produce a good job (doesn't need rework) in a longer time than it takes someone to simply put cursor to CRT (ok, LCD screen these days) ?"
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No, these guys spend all day talking on the phone (about non-work issues).....and just generally don't produce.


"Is it possible that they aren't as great as they think they are, but your management keeps them round 'cause they're chicken (to lay them off) or into social welfare or maybe into trying to teach you young turks (assumed) something from their experience ?"
-----------------------------------
Oh it's absolutely possible that they stink....and most of them in this area get by on their reputation (which in most cases rests on their ability to get along with others rather than productivity). Don't get me wrong: getting along with your co-workers IS important; but so is producing.

"I have to believe that your managment doesn't think there's a problem (or maybe they just don't think !). Personally I'd keep these older guys of the LCDs and in more of a leadership/guidence role."
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Personally, I'd prefer some younger, hungrier guys around here. You can't train younger designers (of which there are not many unfortunately) if you spend all day on the phone and e-mailing your buddies.

 

[whyun]

Engineer needs to know how to engineer a design and also get that design on paper, i.e. draft.

Drafter need not know how to design but be able to understand engineer's design and put that on paper.

Drafters are not necessarily designers because design involves creative process. Old-timer drafters can put a set of drawings together not because they are able to design everything. They do that from experience of having put together drawings/details based on old engineer's creations in the past.

I have no idea about elsewhere in the United States (nor anywhere else in the world) but along my side of the coast, new engineers without a license are called designers. Though there are drafters with experience with job titles such as Senior Designer or something to that effect, I personally disagreewith this practice. Legally, I don't know of any restrictions of the use of the term designer so I suppose it is fine.

My opinion and comments refer only to the field of structural engineering as it is the only field I've any experience.