Quiting and working for competition, ethical? 5

[l3city]

Hi fellas!!
Ok here is the deal, I'm to the point in which I'm considering moving to a different LOCAL company doing the same engineering design work I do at my actual company. I am thankful to my current boss because 4 years ago he gave me my first engineering job and taught me lots of things that I am able to use and work professionally at any place.
As of yesterday I received a phone call, and it seems that the other company (which I really like) will offer me the same job, but with much better work conditions (i.e. attend seminars, classes, better benefits, etc., and perhaps a much better salary).
The point is, that every now and then my current boss and the new boss do business together and of course know each other.
I am letting the 2-bosses deal between them, but I am just wondering how will I look professionally if I leave to the new company. Of course, I don't have access to any "secret" company stuff, and if I have, I know that I must keep my mouth shout.
Also, if the new company offer is ok with me, how do you recommend approaching my current boss even if he tries to match the new company's offer? How to tell my current boss I am going with the competition anyways?

Your comments will be of helps, thanks fellas!!

 

[TheTick]

You are an employee. You are not property. Go where you please.

Do not be cowed by anything that resembles a non-compete clause in your employment agreement. It does not apply to you and is not enforceable. Multiple court rulings have already been made in your favor.

 

[SylvestreW]

well, if I couldn't work for my competitors I'd have been out work after my first job. It's pretty much expected you will work for a competitor since that's where your knowledge lies - in the field you work in.

As you said, once you don't take secrets etc, then there's no conflict. It will be expected that when you join the new company you will work on that company's projects etc.

When you resign, your boss will be one of two ways, mature about it, or a royal PITA. Hope it's the former. And read a few websites about how to prepare a resignation letter etc. Whatever you do, be 110% professional about leaving!

As for your boss/company making a counter offer, it's likely. Think very long and very hard about even considering it. It's easy to have rose coloured glasses when you look back but typically, once you are ready to leave, it's rarely a good choice to reverse that decision (even with loads of money).

 

[KENAT]

Why do you have to tell the existing company where you are going?



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Ashereng]

There is a thread on resignation letters in Eng-Tips. You should look for that thread and read it.

Hand your resignation in to your boss. Then pack up and get ready to leave when he asks you to.

If he asks you to stay, say you appreciate the offer, but you are still leaving.

Going to "work" for the competitor, as an employee is perfectly legal, ethical, moral, etc. As you said, all the company stuff and secrets stay behind.

Good luck at the new job.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[patdaly]

Never accept the "we will offer you more to stay" line.

Never burn the bridge, because you may just well end up working back at the same place for more money in a few years, with a much broader experience range.

If your current boss cannot handle your resignation, then he was not boss material anyway.

My guess is he will understand and offer his congratulations, as well as an offer to call him if you decide to leave company X in the future.

 

[l3city]

Thanks all for your responses, I guess I'm here to read your comments and recommendations so I don't make a mistake. Well, it seems that I can take this job as soon as I want, it just a matter of aceppting and giving my 2-weeks notice.
I haven't taken this year's vacation, questions: shall I go ahead and then quit, or just don't even mention it and leave?
thanks

 

[JAE]

I think that the first thing you should do is decide this:

Do I just want to go to the other firm or do I want to offer my current employer an opportunity to match the offer (both financially and work condition-wise)

This is important. You should carefully analyze whether you KNOW whether your current employment conditions are unacceptable or will not change. If you don't know that for sure, then perhaps at least opening the door to a counter offer is feasible. But only do this if you feel there is a chance that your current employer will work with you honestly on this.

Once you have decided the first question, the rest will fall into place. Your resignation will either be - "Thanks for the work over the years, I'm quitting, good-bye."

OR

"I have an offer, I haven't decided anything yet so you have an opportunity to respond to it".

I believe that there are times when you should offer your current employer a chance to respond to employee market conditions. It is sometimes very tough as an employer to know EXACTLY what someone should be paid (relative to skills and the market) and to know how their work conditions and job benefits match up with other firms.

And sometimes the new job, its higher offer, and apparent work conditions are very pie-in-the-sky compared to the eventual reality. Some firms offer a lot up front just to get you in the door and then hold back on salary adjustments over the next several years to catch you back down with others in the firm.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

That's a hard one

1. They do owe the two weeks vacation.

2. But taking it and then coming back and quitting the next day seems kind of "rotten". Although I have had employees do just that !!

IMHO - that is a bit of a "bridge burner"... but your call.

 

[whyun]

There's nothing unethical about it. Grass is always greener on the otherside and once you get there you realize it is not as green as you thought. Hopefully it is better than the side you were on.

Just tell your boss straight. You might get a firm handshake with a congratulations, cursing or somewhere in between. Just be fair to the guy and tell him "about" the offer but not the offer itself. Find out what he can do for you without hearing the offer at hand, then make your decision.

 

[l3city]

Hi JAE!! Thanks for your comment:
"You should carefully analyze whether you KNOW whether your current employment conditions are unacceptable or will not change. If you don't know that for sure, then perhaps at least opening the door to a counter offer is feasible. But only do this if you feel there is a chance that your current employer will work with you honestly on this
Well I am not here to talk about my boss(at least not in here, jaja) but anyways, I thing there is no "chance my current employer will work with me honestly on this". A current co-worker accepted his counter offer at one time, and yes he/she got a salary increase, but the work environment didn't change at all.
And yes, all of us need and like to get a good salary, and of course this might influence in my decision, but there are some other important factors such as work satisfaction, you know, such as the feeling of professional grow and getting the satisfaction you have accomplished something at the end of the day.
Thanks for your advice, and
MiketheEngineer thank you also, that is why I asked about my vacations, I guess I'll just leave, and maybe ask before hand my new employer to allow me 2 to 3 vacation weeks (non paid of course)(i.e I have a trip to Europe already scheduled at the end of this year)

Well, thanks to ALL!!

 

[casseopeia]

13city,

Assuming you are in the US, you are entitled by law to receive your vacation, whether in the form of days off or payment for those days, if vacation pay is a normal part of your compensation package. It's sometimes referred to as the 'Golden Bear Rule' for the original case law.

If you take more days off than you have earned, it should be deducted from your last check. If you haven't taken enough and have unused vacation days coming, you should receive payment for those unused days/hours.

Some employers do not like for employees to take more 'vacation' that they have earned, even if it is unpaid, since it affects the balance of billable time to unbillable benefits (sick days, holidays and vacation time). It may also affect the standard definition of a full-time employee and therefore affect you benefit entitlement.



"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[whyun]

Work satisfaction is important. But when you reach a certain level in your career, not just in engineering but any career, there is very little "professional" growth.

Also, that sense of accomplishment becomes not as important as long as the job pays the bills and you have most of the toys you need.

A good job is where you don't feel like you are underpaid, the company allows you much flexibility so you can perform your duties, and you don't hate going there every morning.

 

[l3city]

Hi whyun!, thanks for your advice, but that is why I previously said: "And yes, all of us need and like to get a good salary.." Salary is an incentive but, as the credit card commercial says "there are things money can't buy".
With all respects, I disagree with your comment "that sense of accomplishment becomes not as important as long as the job pays the bills and you have most of the toys you need.[i/]...Not in my case

regards

 

[dogleg43]

Good, bad, or whatever, just know that 99% of the employers will lay you off without a moments notice. You're just handed your pink slip and that's it. No two weeks notice, no nothing. The MBA weasels will tell you that is how it has to be done, blah, blah, blah.

But watch'em squeal if you do the same to them. Supposedly that is "unprofessional". Can anyone say double-standard?

 

[SylvestreW]

I'd recommend not taking vacation within a month of quitting. It's one of those actions that's not explicitly wrong but leaves a bad mark on your character.
As for leaving, also remember that when you give your 2 weeks notice, if the employer asks you to leave immediately, you have to get paid those 2 weeks as well.

 

[RossABQ]

I think the better approach is to first go in to your current employer, and ask about pay, training, a "better environment", and these other things that the other company is "promising" you, without mentioning the other company's offers. If these things are important to you, enough that you'd quit, have you made this known to your present employer? Depending on your present employer's answers, you can give notice on the spot, or stay where you are with no hard feelings and an improved position. Telling him up front that he has to match or beat the other guy's "bid" smells bad to me, and you essentially have put one foot out the door at that point.

 

[davidbeach]

I disagree with RossABQ. In all cases an employee should assume that the present employer is providing the best possible salary/benefit package and that is what other potential employers should have to better. If you let them pay you more to stay you are just encouraging them to underpay in the future. The pay and benefits should include not only what you are presently worth to the company but also an "insurance" premium against the cost of replacing you. If your employer isn't taking care of you to that standard you should have no compunction against walking. If you start bargaining you'll always wonder what else got left on the table and you'll be known as a trouble maker when it comes time to make reductions in staff.

 

[Jordonlaw]

Simply write a list of the advantages of going to the new job compared to the disadvantages of staying with the old. This is not a trivial task and you should think long and carefully about it. This will make your decision so much easier.

 

[josephv]

Hi l3city,

Here is an idea, if you choose you can give your employer 4 weeks notice. Work the first 2 weeks, then go on vacation the 2 last weeks. If you write this in your resignation letter, they will have to pay you for the last 2 weeks.

Also, when you negotiate you can ask your potential new employer to start you off with 3 weeks vacation, so you get paid while you are in Europe. And ask that in writing. If they don't want to do that, well then maybe the grass is not that green on the other side of the fence.

good luck,