Quiting and working for competition, ethical? 5

[l3city]

Hi fellas!!
Ok here is the deal, I'm to the point in which I'm considering moving to a different LOCAL company doing the same engineering design work I do at my actual company. I am thankful to my current boss because 4 years ago he gave me my first engineering job and taught me lots of things that I am able to use and work professionally at any place.
As of yesterday I received a phone call, and it seems that the other company (which I really like) will offer me the same job, but with much better work conditions (i.e. attend seminars, classes, better benefits, etc., and perhaps a much better salary).
The point is, that every now and then my current boss and the new boss do business together and of course know each other.
I am letting the 2-bosses deal between them, but I am just wondering how will I look professionally if I leave to the new company. Of course, I don't have access to any "secret" company stuff, and if I have, I know that I must keep my mouth shout.
Also, if the new company offer is ok with me, how do you recommend approaching my current boss even if he tries to match the new company's offer? How to tell my current boss I am going with the competition anyways?

Your comments will be of helps, thanks fellas!!

 

[patdaly]

I always handed in my 2 week notice, but listed my final day as the 2 weeks, plus whatever vacation time I had accrued, and the note that my final work day will be XXX, the remaining time being vacation accrued in year XXXX.

I don't know how it works now, but at least in the last state I quit in, they were only obligated to pay you for the last weeks worked if you handed in your resignation in writing, assuming they let you go early.

And yes, you should be able to negotiate XX vacation time, with the first years vacation scheduled at YYY date. GET IT IN WRITING!

 

[greenone]

An advantage to doing as patdaly says, is that your medical coverage (assuming you have it) will last as long as your official employement, which is good in case your new benefits take a month to kick in.
If the new company wants you badly enough, they will wait the extra week or two for you to start. It'll take them that long to interview and offer to someone else anyway.

 

[fasboater]

I went through exactly what you are proposing about a year ago. Although I told the new potential employer that I wanted to talk with my employer before I accepted. I was 90% sure that I was going to except the new position. At that time the company I was working for had just hired a new operations manager that I reported directly to. To make a long story short he was a non engineer telling me I had to do things that I didn’t agree with, I also believed there could be some ethical concerns. With that said I really liked my position up and until the new operations manager. Well anyway I went in and talked to the company president and shared with him my issues, I also let him know that I had another job offer that I was seriously considering. He asked me to think about what it would take to keep me. I let the president of the company know the issues that I was having with the operations manager and shared with him what it would take to match the salary and insurance offer. The president of the company offered this:

They matched salary and benefits and even discussed future salary increases.
An additional week of vacation
Additional training
More freedom to come and go providing my work was finished.
And the most important he addressed the operations and included me in the discussion (he gave him a real lashing). I now report directly to the president of the company.

I decided to stay and its been about year since all of that took place. I seriously doubt all outcomes will be like this but it turned out great for me.

 

[JAE]

fasboater - yes - that is why earlier I said:

"...if you feel there is a chance that your current employer will work with you honestly on this."...then reserve your adamant resignation and allow your current employer to better understand the market that they must deal with.

I'm firmly convinced that most employers struggle to know, understand or appreciate the true market that there is for engineers out there.

The difference is whether your employer has the disposition to respond well to their newly acquired market information or whether they will be bull-headed and try to keep you with the least amount of effort, money or response.

Which type of employer you have is something each of us have to analyze before making the decision whether to just leave or whether to allow the two firms to compete for you.

 

[csd72]

What I think is unethical is when you give 2 weeks notice and take that off as leave.

If you do not want to burn bridges, you should give your employer a fair go and spend the two weeks making sure that all your projects are either finished off or handed over to someone else in a satisfactory manner.

csd

 

[GTstartup]

As for leaving, also remember that when you give your 2 weeks notice, if the employer asks you to leave immediately, you have to get paid those 2 weeks as well.

 

[GTstartup]

Sorry, hit the submit on the above post instead of edit.

But basically I wanted to point out that in the US this is generally not true. Thats like saying if I give 6 months notice and they ask me to leave after 1 month then they have to pay me 5 months pay. In fact, if you give your notice and they ask you to leave that same day it's in the employer's discretion how much will ne paid. If you don't have a contract that addresses this, you could be paid zip.

 

[josephv]

Hi GTstartup,

I think the problem is that if they ask someone to leave that very day (i.e. before the date in the resignation letter), then that person is technically being "laid off" and they may have to pay them even more than the 2 weeks (depending on how long one worked there, and depending if one was a full time employee an dnot a contractor).

It might be in the companies best interest to accept one's resignation and just pay the employee for the 2 weeks.

cheers,

 

[GTstartup]

Hi Josephv

I don't know where you are located, but in the US you can be given 5 minutes notice and "laid off" with no compensation. No reason is necessary. There are some exceptions to this, i.e if you have a contract, are in a Union etc. In general, (some States may differ) there is no law that says that laid off workers must receive severance pay. There is a law that requires unemployment compensation.

 

[josephv]

Thank you for clarifying this GTstartup, I did not know this.

What I wrote applies to Canada. Obviously I am not familiar with US laws, my mistake.

 

[Ashereng]

josephv,

I believe that the laws in Canada are also "at will employment". This means that legally, a company can lay you off whenever they do, and you are entitled to only that compensation that is either in your contract (which typically provide for 2 weeks notice), or is statutory (ie. vacation pay, etc.).

You should consult with a lawyer friend, if you have one, or your HR department - just to double check that I am correct.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[IRstuff]

The US does (did?) have a big exception, which is the case of mass terminations that are typical of plant shutdowns. Under those conditions, the layoff notice is a mandatory 6 months, to allow time for retraining and interviewing, etc.

This only applies to relatively large companies. My former company played it even better than the book at the time. They gave EVERYONE 6 months notice, just to make sure they didn't get sued by some disgruntled soul.



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Pud]

What do you go to work for?

Answer - pay the rent/mortgage, feed that family, etc etc.

No problem working for competitor - that's life.

My only regret was that when I was approached to work for a competitor, when asked what I would move for I said 25% more than I was earning and they said "fine" without batting an eyelid! (should have said more!)


Cheers


Harry

 

[josephv]

Hello Ashereng,

By law companies are required to give a certain termination notice in Ontario, this notice increases for every year of employment. If the employee is not given notice, then the company has to pay the employee a lump sum equal to the employees wages during the notice period. For example someone who has worked for a company 8 years or more either gets either 8 weeks notice or 8 an week termination pay without notice.

Typically, in Ontario employees don't get notice but do get the termination pay. The reasoning being that it would be negative for both the employee and employer to have a "lame duck" situation.

On top of this there is "severance pay", which I will not go over but is discussed in this link:

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/factsheets/fs_termination.html

Frankly, I am a bit surprised the States don't have something similar. But then again, it shows how little I know.

 

[Ashereng]

josephv,

I didn't know that. Interesting.

Does this differ from provinces to provinces?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[l3city]

Guys, thanks all for your responses, I am leaving...no matter what comes in, is time for me to "fly" to some place different...thank you all I'll keep in touch with this great forum!!!

 

[RDK]

There is some variation between the provinces.

In Manitoba you can be terminated without notice or reason in the first six months, with two weeks and no reason in the second six months and after one year only for cause (misbehavior or lack of work) If for cause no notice required if layoff then two weeks required.

(or at least it was that way last time I investigated it several years ago)


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[62hog]

I read the following somewhere recently:

"If you enjoy what you do (I would also assume that means where you are doing it) then you will never have to work a day in your life."

I have been very fortunate and only changed jobs one time while in the consulting business. When I decided to give my two week notice, my former employer made a counter-offer. I refused it. He then asked me to stay an extra week to finish a few things I was in the middle of.

To this day, I believe if I needed a job, all I would have to do is call him an start to work tomorrow.

I don't know much about statistics, but I do know that if something has a 50-50 chance of going wrong, 9 times out of 10 it will. Author unknown

 

[TXiceman]

Enjoy your new job....

Ken

Ken
KE5DFR

 

[MedicineEng]

In China, after Chinese New Year, it is not uncommon to have a 30% of labour force wuitting to go to another job. They wait for hte double pay, and then resign.