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"E7018": a rant to designers. 4

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HgTX

Civil/Environmental
Aug 3, 2004
3,722
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." (Princess Bride)

I am posting this in this particular forum because bridge welding is more likely than structural welding to have long machine welds.

Almost every set of plans I see requires E70XX or E7018 electrodes. But just because your undergraduate steel design textbook used E70XX electrodes in the design example does not mean that is all there is to welding with 70-ksi electrodes.

Designers seem to intend "E70XX" to generically mean "filler metal with a minimum tensile strength of 70 ksi". But it does not mean that. E70XX means something very specific. It means filler metal with a minimum tensile strength of 70 ksi, welded by the shielded metal arc welding process. That is stick welding. With rods. Manually. With stops and starts every foot or so.

If you want the fabricator to be able to use any machine or semi-automatic wire-fed process such as submerged arc welding, flux-cored arc welding, etc., you cannot say "E70XX". Moreover, if you are designing to a specification that requires SAW for certain types of joints (AREMA and certain DOTs), you create a spec conflict by using that term. If you are using weathering steel, the corresponding weathering filler metal is in fact 80 ksi (a side effect of the alloys, not because more strength is needed), and if you require E70XX for a weathering steel structure you have now guaranteed non-weathering properties for your welds.

The best way to get the weld metal you want is to call for filler metal of matching strength to the base metal; this is covered very well in the AWS D1.1 and D1.5 welding codes. Otherwise you can talk about the minimum required weld metal tensile strength.

But don't say "E7018". The fact that you've gotten away with it so far just means people have been ignoring you. But "we knew what they meant" is not the optimal way to go about one's business.

Rant over. Thank you for your time.

Hg
 
duly noted. Thanks.

I'm probably guilty as charged.
 
I confess, and ask for mercy!

Thanks for the information, I will definitely follow up on that.
 
I'm so glad no one has been grumpy about it so far. Anyone wanna hear my "weld all-around symbol" rant?

Hg
 
You are preaching to choir, but I gave up trying to get our designers to stop saying E70xx. I figure that fabricators will just say, "as usual those engineers don't know what they are doing" and show the appropriate electrode for the weld process they want to use on their wps.
 
I revisited my use of weld all around years ago. A friend in the fabrication business went on a rant about that one.
 
I supposed it has to do with the difficulty of going around corners? I confess I have used the all around symbol for pipe handrail posts and frames made of HSS tubing. My understanding was that it was necessary for the HSS.

I need to do some more research about the use of E70XX electrodes since most of the welds I specify is in conjunction with M270W steel.
 
Weld all round should result in as much welding as possible while leaving the corners unwelded, or with just a very light "seal" weld.

Or do I need go hear your rant? *blush*
 
HgTX said:
I am posting this in this particular forum because bridge welding is more likely than structural welding to have long machine welds.

Almost every set of plans I see requires E70XX or E7018 electrodes. But just because your undergraduate steel design textbook used E70XX electrodes in the design example does not mean that is all there is to welding with 70-ksi electrodes.

Designers seem to intend "E70XX" to generically mean "filler metal with a minimum tensile strength of 70 ksi". But it does not mean that. E70XX means something very specific. It means filler metal with a minimum tensile strength of 70 ksi, welded by the shielded metal arc welding process. That is stick welding. With rods. Manually. With stops and starts every foot or so.

If you want the fabricator to be able to use any machine or semi-automatic wire-fed process such as submerged arc welding, flux-cored arc welding, etc., you cannot say "E70XX". Moreover, if you are designing to a specification that requires SAW for certain types of joints (AREMA and certain DOTs), you create a spec conflict by using that term. If you are using weathering steel, the corresponding weathering filler metal is in fact 80 ksi (a side effect of the alloys, not because more strength is needed), and if you require E70XX for a weathering steel structure you have now guaranteed non-weathering properties for your welds.

The best way to get the weld metal you want is to call for filler metal of matching strength to the base metal; this is covered very well in the AWS D1.1 and D1.5 welding codes. Otherwise you can talk about the minimum required weld metal tensile strength.

But don't say "E7018". The fact that you've gotten away with it so far just means people have been ignoring you. But "we knew what they meant" is not the optimal way to go about one's business.

Rant over. Thank you for your time.

I really want to thank you for your post. I've been educating myself more about welding as a result. How common is flux cored arc welding for machine welding? The only fab shop I've visited used SAW for their long weld passes like flange to web welds.

I found this document from the Ohio DOT about types of weld filler materials. I think it really explains it well.
I think the general note I usually use says something to the effect of "all welds shall have weathering characteristics". After all the reading I've done it would seem you can't really specify an electrode unless you know the type of welding that will be done (SMAW, GMAW, SAW or FCAW).
 
SAW is the most common for machine welding, though FCAW & metal-cored GMAW also happen.
Your link is a good one--it shows examples of different classifications for different welding processes and how they differ.

Weld all around really means weld all around, no stopping at corners (and certainly no welding 3 sides of an overlapping joint but not the 4th). If a rant is warranted, I should start a new topic. Is this the right ET forum or should I pick a different one?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
 
Go ahead and rant in this forum Hg - it's not exactly high traffic.
 
Does "not exactly high traffic" also mean low readership? I'd put this stuff in the welding code fora except the people who most need to see it are the least likely to be subscribed to those.

Seal welds are another rant entirely, though there is a published rant by the esteemed Duane Miller of Lincoln Electric that is of much better quality than any rant I could rant. And in an unranty style, even better. (Short version: seal welds don't know they're just seal welds, will still take load, and if they're undersized or of nonstandard quality they can still cause problems.) I should post that somewhere as well.

Hg

p.s. Hi Tom!
 
I think there are quite a few readers when there is traffic.
 
HgTX: I'm interested in what you have to say.
 
Ditto: Please do post a FAQ, or at minimum keep ranting... You are the OP, after all.
 
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