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"Free Energy" reality or aanother "perpetual motion" scam? 2

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jmw

jmw

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Jun 27, 2001
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"Dublin-based Steorn challenged the world's 'most qualifi ed and the most cynical' scientists to put its technology, based on magnetic interaction, to the test."
Note: this is not April 1st but then, Christmass has already started in the high street shops.

They claim (
"We have developed a technology that produces free, clean and constant energy.

This means never having to recharge your phone, never having to refuel your car. A world with an infinite supply of clean energy for all.

Our technology has been independently validated by engineers and scientists - always off the record, always proven to work."
Click to expand...

and see here:
So, comments anyone?

JMW
 
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I suspect thaat 0707 was getting at the usual conundrum - if I hold a magnet over a steel pin, the pin jumps up to the magnet, gaining potential energy. Where does that energy come from?

The answer is of course not immediately obvious, and causes hours of fun in pubs and physics classrooms everywhere.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
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jmv has taken the right decision to put this topic in the Engineering History forum rather than in the Where's Engineering going forum, because there's really nothing new.
Medicine men and pseudo scientists have always managed to fool the masses and always will. :)
 
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Nice to get something right once in a while!

The fact that Steorn hasn't revealed all is no help since instead of being able to de-bunk yet another "gyroscope" antigravity craft, etc etc we are supposed to sit back and be open minded (gullible?) and admit the possibility they may have something we don't yet understand, or we denounce them as charlatans (close minded?) on general principals i.e. all such previous claims are bunk or that they must be violating one of the conservation laws. (about the only ture law or postulate is Barnum's "there's one born every minute!").

If we assume they have an observed effect, we could just assume two things:
1) what the designed didn't work as they expected (they didn't set out to develop this)
2) they have no idea what's really happening, i.e. no explanation for the observed effect
3) their observations are flawed.

I suppose we ought to assume their observation appears correct but is flawed: for example, when they did their energy balance, did they just balance their known energy source with the derived energy or did they consider the interaction witb the surroundings? I mean, this is a "micro-generator with lots of interacting magnetic fields", perhaps they have another energy input they haven't accounted for such as external electro-magentic field interactions or radiant energy... be interesting to know if the observations are verifiable and if the effect is duplicated when scaled up.



JMW
 
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Greg

Excuse my ignorance but I don’t know what is a conundrum. So I invite you to post this term in the English grammar forum.

I like you all, and this posting is a good exercise for our brains to answer “if Fridge magnets don’t have any source of energy so how do they fight gravity?

This is only to have fun not to get ourselves fool!!!

Science and curiosity without fun is a sadness...

Best regards to you all

luis

[atom]
 
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jmw, you are right (again :), there is a balance between being open minded and denouncing charlatans (close minded as you say). Of course open-mindedness is required for any scientific progress so we have to be open minded, on the other hand the "laws" (theories) of physics are there to understand and predict phenomena i.e. allow us to have a certain opinion about machines like these before having seen and tested every single detail... until proven wrong of course.
The law of conservation of energy (mass-energy if you like) has served us very well to denounce perpetuum mobiles (can't think of the correct Latin plural right now) for many centuries, so... open minded, sure, but let's just say that the burden of proof in this case is not on our side.
 
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Some other links:

If anyone understands this, let me know.
It began to sound like a Sci-Fi explanation of FTL travel, or "pseudoscience" and the link to Tom Beardens website was like Von Daniken had risen again.
But Tom Bearden appears appropriatley credentialed and so there may be something in it.
Then again:
The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG)
One build-up has produced up to 100 times more power than was input
Overunity performance successfully replicated independently by other researchers
Click to expand...
(
This appears to predate the Steorn publicity and one wonders if there is a link since instead of saying "Been there, done that, see you in court since i have a patent" Tom Bearden appears to be backing up Steorn:
But who are "Pure Energy Systems"?

There again, I am still open to cold fusion being possible (and why not?) Actually, cold fusion seesm to have more credability at this stage.
So I will probably have to leave this to the professional debunkers and just wait until my next mobile phone has a Steorn generator in it before I believe in anything again.
Actually, I am quite a credulous sort, the sort PT Barnum believes in, you might think: I believe my wife when she says she got a bargain, usually a pair of shoes that she never wears. But then again, I never win any arguments on that acount so what hope do I have with perpetual motion and overunity asymetric systems?



JMW
 
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Breeder reactors are what people have in mind when they talk about conservation of mass/energy instead of the traditional conservation of energy. If you do the arithmetic on the energy developed in the initial reaction plus the mass of fissionable material produced plus the energy developed in the "bred" reaction plus the mass of the fssion products inm the secondary reaction you'll find that a healthy amount of energy is produced in useable form, but there is also a large amount that is converted to unusable forms of energy. Nothing about that process suggests perpetual motion to me, I think of it as closer to "recycling".

David

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
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jmv, believe me, if someone really invented a cold fusion based perpetual mobile, he would not bla bla about it, he would be selling it on every street corner. As long as it's not in the shops........
 
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As you get older and reflect on the rate of change, see new developments you would never have even imagined, when the only hight tech item in the house when you were nougyt but a lad is a Television with a 6" black and white picture made of about 10 flickery lines, and then look at everything we have today, it gets harder and harder to make that definite denial because you are sure than some one will prove you wrong in the next moment.

So just how sacrosanct are the laws of physics?

Didn't some great scientist once say "There is no new physics, everything there is to know we now know" only to have the atom split the following day? (was it Rutherford? Kelvin or someone like that?)

So I guess I am not so much open minded and deathly affeared of making a complete ass of myself... of course, this is catch 22 territory.... the alternative is to be just a bit too ready to be open to belive the next charalatan with his better mousetrap...

So, a very good suggestion, Epoisses, I'll wait till it's in the shops and then i can believe it. Until then I'll just nod knowingly and let everyone else make fools of themseleves.





JMW
 
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There are many things that were considered once "Not possible" that are now possible.
In every case that I am aware of the breakthrough was the development of new materials and/or devices, not a change in the laws of physics.
Many of the functions now handled routinely by imbeded computer chips were not possible until computer chips of adequate speed and ability were developed.
No physical laws were broken, although astronomical numbers of electrons were inconvenienced.
respectfully
 
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Skogs,
you are right, of course, and especially in this instance, but Spock-like logic is always undermined in humans by emotions.... the brain (and one set of emotions; the "there's no such thing as a free lunch" voice) says that these guys are con-merchants of the first order and then some other little nagging voice asks if you can ever be really certain, and it is that last little nagging voice that sometimes helps you push the boundaries of conventional or received wisdom and come up with something useful....

Following the links on "Overunity asymetric" widgets lead me to the site of Thomas E Bearden, (and who am I to oppose this emminent scientist who assuredly knows more than I even if he were a con-merchant) and from there via a refernce to Gabriel Kron to anti-gravity devices.... OK so what if none of it is true, its certainly facinating reading.

Back to Thomas E and his article "Chasing the Dragon" where he says (of overunity devices) "The resulting overunity machine accomplishes both room temperature superconductivity and also overunity coefficient of performance (Figure 16). It does not violate the conservation laws of physics. It does not violate the second law of thermodynamics because it is an open system receiving and utilizing excess energy from the vacuum, and the second law need not apply to such systems. [note 18]"

All this leaves us to consider is if there is the energy flow we can tap into.....

Anyway, such topics are always good fun however seriously or not they must be considered. Some of you may even have fun debunking them.




JMW
 
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