RAM Concept/Bentley Licensing and vs SAFE

[bookowski]

I've become that guy asking about software on here. Next I'll be asking if column bases are assumed to be pinned.

I'm thinking of switching from SAFE to Concept and have a few questions.

First, here what I typically do and need:
- A good amount of flate plate design (in the US), essentially no post-tension. For ballpark let's say about 1M sq.ft. of slab design per year.
- Currently have SAFE (along with Etabs) and have some infrastructure built around safe, i.e. several spreadsheets that directly speak to safe for load takedowns, design, etc.
- Current frustration is that SAFE is entirely useless for slab design. It is essentially an analysis tool and relies on the user to manually design the rebar via post processing. Back when I was starting out the company I worked for would plot the safe results on the big plotter and we'd sit with a calculator and manually work out and mark down the rebar. Recently I've been working on tools for post processing, but I am starting to realize that this is stupid. SAFE's automatic design is so bad it's laughable so that's off the table.

So I've been looking at Concept. I have used Concept a long time ago and my partner is quite competent with it, so there's some learning curve but not starting at zero.

Now the questions:
- Does anyone know of any benefit of SAFE over Concept?
- The only benefits I have found in my research so far are: 1) connection to etabs, 2) safe is cheaper, 3) it seems like safe is faster for a quick and dirty schematic model
- I am very confused by the Bentley licensing. Their website directs you to their blog to explain the "practitioner" license which they go on and on about as being superior to "old license models" but how their licensing actually works is very fuzzy. I found some older threads on here with some very unhappy customers that got stuck with extra usage bills. Is this still happening? Any other input/complaints/info on their license model? Is it possible to still buy perpetual licenses?
- A big advantage that I see in RAM, and my main reason for wanting to switch, is that the user can manually define their rebar in the model, verify designs, etc, and then directly export that to cad. Since I don't have a license I've been relying on a peer that has a license to test it out and it seems quite good, with a little tweaking it looks like you could dump rebar to cad and only need minimal drafting cleanup. Are people using it like this? If this is the case then it makes safe look like a high school science project in comparison.
- The licensing is one of my main concerns. For a few thousand bucks I'd give it a shot but if I'm buying into a system that is forever going to be trying to scam me I'll stay away. I find it very strange that almost all licensing info comes from their blog or the bentley communities forum. I see a posting from them on their from April 1, 23 (so quite recent) about another change to the way they are licensing Concept. They seem to be in constant flux with their model and always testing how to squeeze the max out of users. Does anyone with experience have any input?

 

[SethGuthrie]

You are correct that the practitioner license is assigned to a specific user and can't be reassigned for 30 days. That's why I said it was like a checked-out license. It's an alternative to our normal SELECT licensing which is a network entitlement free to share amongst any number of users and machines.

 

[slickdeals]

As a RAM concept user (and fan), I would pick it any day over SAFE. There's plenty of features, makes production easy (similar to S&T, have a workflow to make PT and rebar work be <1 hour into Revit).
I also use it for foundation design getting result from ETABS into Concept. However, the one thing I always find difference between Concept and SAFE is in the load distribution on piled rafts/pile caps etc. Feels like the load distribution is a bit more realistic in SAFE as thick shell formulation is available.

The other big plus for me with Bentley is people like Seth and Karl Gullerud who are awesome to interact with and genuinely listen to user feedback rather than CSI who don't listen (and don't care).

@SethGuthrie - The other thing I would love to have in Concept is easier way to kick information into Excel similar to how ETABS and SAFE have it. Currently it's a bit complicated to get information from tables into Excel.

@S&T - I will reach out to you about your Dynamo script and maybe can exchange some ideas.

 

[bookowski]

@Slickdeals - Thanks, based on the input it sounds like concept is a winner from the design/workflow perspective. Your point about excel is a good one that I had not thought of. We currently use the export to excel and also the interactive database editing frequently. For example we often generate column schedules via a link to the database for column reactions and size etc vs taking it from a global etabs model, basically out col sched is always in sync with the safe models. So I'd need to develop some new systems.

Re customer service from CSI vs Bentley - I can't say much about Bentley yet, other than this sorting out the licenses seems like a mess and it's not easy to get help (except from their chatbot). I've personally had very good experiences with CSI support. On the design side they are terrible and I don't know why they've dropped the ball so much on that side. But in terms of support they've been very helpful for me. I had one situation where we had a problem with safe over a weekend with a big deadline and one of the most senior people there spent the weekend directly texting me and getting me help to have it sorted out, it was very impressive customer service.

@SethGuthrie - When you say that virtuosity is an alternative to the standard license that doesn't feel like it jives to someone new to the software. If I google ram concept I end up on the virtuosity page with no indication of other options. If I go directly through the bentley website and choose concept I see 3 "buy now" buttons that lead to virtuosity and only now have I found the other license option buried at the bottom, but with no pricing or info - it says that I need to speak to a sales rep to get info. So for people already in the pipeline it may be ok but for someone looking to switch it'd definitely not clear.

 

[SethGuthrie]

Regarding the post-processing of Ram Concept data from tables, besides the table export there is also now an API that works with simple Python scripting. We will continue to enhance this so that engineers can easily import or export the information they need. Here's a thread on that FYI

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=483382

Regarding the clarity of the Bentley buying experience... obviously you are right and it could be more clear. I think I'm too late in my career to take over marketing and presales, but you never know.

 

[bookowski]

@SethGuthrie - That's good to hear about table exports and an API. On the technical side it sounds like concept is a winner but I am still not clear on the licensing. Since i've got your ear, can you please point me to the details. In particular I am wondering about the complaints I hear about over charges. Even the API thread that you just linked to has someone warning that working on scripting can trigger overage charges. I am not used to this. I found the "select" plans on the website (

https://www.bentley.com/support/licensing-and-subscriptions/)

but they say very little, again it's a "contact us". Can you point me to more info or let me know:
- Is there some equivalent of a cloud/pooled license that does not run the risk of extra charges? I do not have the resources to get an unexpected bill of thousands or 10's of thousands as some on here have experienced, it'd ruin us.
- Even when it's just me using it I'd want to be able to use it at the office, use it at home, on a train ride, etc. Is that possible?
- Pricing? (I can't find anything on the website for non-virtu licensing prices)
- Is there a free trial of concept?

 

[SethGuthrie]

If you want licenses that are easy to share across machines and users, then the normal select license is what I recommend. A lot of the negative sentiment was when the subscription entitlement service was new. We made advancements in the entitlement service so that you can throw up a warning, even a custom warning, and also prevent offline usage. Check:

https://communities.bentley.com/com.../how-to-enable-and-configure-license-alerting

We also changed policies so that concurrent usage less than 10 minutes does not count. All that makes it easy to prevent accidental overuse.
To but a perpetual license I need to connect you with a sales person for a quote. You can message me privately or email me when you want to buy and I'll connect you with the right person based on your location. The virtuoso subscriptions are pegged at 40% of the perpetual license cost so you can always back calculate the permanent license cost with that price/0.4. A sales person can set you up with a trial period if demonstrations is not enough.

 

[struct_dude_360]

bookowski,

Send me an email, I would be happy to share with you.

Hey @sticksandtriangles ,

Would you be able to share the script with me as well? I have been trying to develop a solution that exports RAM concept rebar into Revit but applies logic in the intermediate step and cleans up the generated rebar. The issue holding me back is that the RAM concept API does not yet have this feature and the itwin synchronizer uses previous versions of Revit that are not yet compatible with the version that my company uses. I am very curious how you were able to export the rebar out of concept with your dynamo script.

 

[sticksandtriangles]

struct_dude_360,

Shoot me an email, I've got a system that uses excel output from concept and dynamo to place rebar in revit.

S&T -

http://www.re-tug.com

 

[bookowski]

As the OP, 2 last thoughts:
- I was hoping a savior would emerge to throw some points in the favor of SAFE, but it looks like a shellacking unfortunately
- There are some reps from both SAFE and RAM on these forums. To you guys - shouldn't the development of these tools for getting designs onto paper be a high priority? I'd imagine that the in house teams have the resources, program knowledge, and time to develop something quite quickly (couple of days?). Instead of people writing their own scripts and sending it around the web it'd be great if there was a built in tool. Getting design info out of software and onto a drawing is a fairly basic ask these days. Any idea if this is being developed?