Received an offer to leave present employer 8

[DwayneM]

*all names have been changed... yada,yada..*

I work for TS LLC as a civil engineer. It's a small (4 PE's) firm, and when I was hired as the 4th, I was told it was because of my experience with EPA projects, having worked for a time for the EPA directly, because the firm expected to land a substantial consulting contract with the EPA. What it has is an IDIQ contract with MN Inc., a multinational firm, who has a contract with EPA. So I am employed by TS, who subs to MN for the EPA. In the past 18 months I have worked on two small task orders for MN, but mostly TS's usual brief small projects (essentially working as county engineer). We are about to begin a third task order for MN.
Turns out there's a guy (DB)who acted as a marketer, I guess, and persuaded MN to hire TS based on my background. DB has approached me with a proposal: At the conclusion of the 2-month task order, I leave TS and work as a contract engineer directly for MN, doing the same work for 1.5x my present salary (from which I would pay my own benefits, etc.). After 2-3 months, DB, our contact from MN, and I form our own LLC (my salary would remain 1.5x current) to continue to work for the EPA and develop our own work (DB has guaranteed me at least 18 mos. of contracts).
I would like you guys to weigh in on the ethics of the situation, considering the following: (1) I don't have a contract or "no competition" agreement with TS, (B) Had DB not gotten the third task order for TS from MN based solely on my resume, TS would very likely let me go for lack of workload, and (third) it's not likely that TS would up my salary or get another task order, even if I stayed.

To sum up: TS got a MN task order for the EPA because of me; after a few months and conclusion of task order term, I basically take that job and go solo, eventually forming a partnership based in part on that job.

 

[IRstuff]

But, in essence, you're going to poach TS' customer after having worked with the same customer at TS. Don't know about TS, but if I were they, I'd be tempted to sue your butt afterwards.

I would also question why MN wouldn't poach you directly. My guess is that they don't really have sufficient work for you either, which means that if you carry this through, there will be a time in the near future where you'll be left high and dry. The end result may be both companies ignoring you for longer term work.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[zdas04]

I'm assuming that MN is another engineering firm in competition with TS? That doesn't feel real sanitary, but if you don't have a non-compete you're probably OK-ish.

I regularly see clients poach engineers from engineering firms to lower their engineering costs (it never works since the new guy rapidly get wrapped up in the same administrative nonsense that drove them to high contractors to start with). That seems to be sort of OK with everyone.

One engineering firm subbing work to another engineering firm also happens all the time, so maybe your situation is like that?

I'm not sure I have all of this straight in my mind.

David

 

[IRstuff]

I'd certainly feel more secure if the poaching was direct. But poaching into a 3rd entity raises a lot of questions.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[patprimmer]

Do not trust DB out of sight. If you shake his hand, count your fingers afterward.

While you are free to work for whoever you like and are only really obliged to make an equal commitment to your employer as they are prepared to make to you. You say you have no contract, so their commitment is to the end of you currently paid up time or statutory notice period that applies at your location.

On the other hand DB is acting against the interest of his employer while working for them. He is asking you to take risks on a promise he is actually not in a position to make.

The situation is as I see it:-

1) You leave reasonably secure employment and upset two employers in your probably rather small pond.
2) He stays employed and sees how it all works out.
3) If and only if it works out he decides when he want's to join in with you to take a non disclosed share for what he provides to the partnership which in reality is?
4) He has already showed disloyalty and unethical inclinations in how he wants you to treat your employer and on how he says he will treat his and how he was treating his in your meeting. Do you really want this man for a partner. To quote from Montey Pythons movie, In Quest of the Holly Grail, "run away run away".


Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[TheTick]

Sounds like a lot of risk with the added benefit of alienating your current employer while allowing your new patron the privilege of abandoning you at will. I say go for it.

 

[FACS]

I don't see an ethics problem, good luck.

Is this something that you could talk to TS about? It might be wise to consult them, keep them in the loop, by tactfully talking about the proposal. Therefore; you will not burn a bridge that you may need in the future.

Good for you, congratulations

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[RacingAZ]

Why would you want to go in business with someone as unethical as DB? Do you think he won't screw you when he comes up with another money making scheme that does not involve your participation?

I can't partner with someone like that, as I'll always be watching my back.

The bottom line is how much do you value your reputation?

 

[lacajun]

Since you are a PE, I would suggest you contact your state board for their opinion based upon your state's law and your board's code of conduct. Read some of the review cases at NSPE. I would also suggest you review business ethics. From my training, I would say your potential path is unethical.

TS hired you for your EPA experience. DB convinced MN to hire TS because of your EPA experience. Now DB wants to form his own company with you, which will take several months, thereby taking work away from TS and MN to work directly for the EPA. I think that is a proper summary of your situation.

DB effectively wants to supplant two companies to position his own, which could be problematic. If it isn't problematic, why not form your own company immediately and go head-to-head with TS and MN? It also seems like collusion to me, which is improper conduct. You are both going to capitalize on inside knowledge and established relationships because of your current employers.

If you were TS or MN and learned what happened, what would you think? Would you think your potential actions proper? It seems said marketer, DB, needs your engineering experience more than you need him. The way I see it, you are DB's target and were before you met DB. Ask yourself the question of whether or not he is leading you astray? You're seeking opinions so something in your gut says it may not be the right thing to do.

I would walk away from DB with a polite "no." But, it is your decision.

Why not approach TS with suggestions that you may think are more satisfactory and equitable, since your knowledge and skills are in demand and bringing in work? Bonus? Percentage of the EPA contracts? You're creative and can think of ideas. Your 3rd supposition, above, is an unknown until you ask and are denied. Don't put words into people's mouths.

Don't "ass-u-me" your first two suppositions hold water either. Whether you have a written contract or a non-compete or you don't, you still have a "gentleman's" agreement.

 

[moon161]

IF you work as IC, you may be screwing yourself a couple ways:

Taxes: I've set consulting rates, but haven't paid taxes yet. rule of thumb is ask for 1.75-2x your desired takehome, the balance goes to fed & state taxes, unemployment (which you may have trouble using) disability, medical, retirement, etc. 1.5x sounds a bit low.

Unemployment Insurance: When the well runs dry and your old boss won't take you back, I hear it's hard to get unemployment when self-employed.

 

[DwayneM]

Thanks to all of you for your insight. I agree with many of your points, and I do plan to be upfront with all parties as I decide my course of action.

A little further explanation:
- The potential new partnership would also include the employee of MN whom we are working with on the EPA task orders.
- TS would not have any work with EPA were it not for DB matching them up with MN.

My plan is to sit down with my boss at TS and advise him I have been approached with an offer to go contract, point out to him that I am the one working the EPA contract and ask for a commensurate raise / bonus. Also, have a frank discussion of my prospects with TS should we get no more EPA task orders. I would advise him that it was DB who approached me with the offer, and lay the details on the table. If my future with TS could be assured (as much as one can say) for the next year or so, I would stay. If not, I trust he would understand my position.

Keep the advice coming, folks.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

My plan is to sit down with my boss at TS and advise him I have been approached with an offer to go contract, point out to him that I am the one working the EPA contract and ask for a commensurate raise / bonus.

Be careful with that... some might see it as threatening, holding the position hostage, take your pick of terms. If someone's only reason in asking for a raise was someone offered more, and they could not show what they've done over and above their job to improve the company, they run the risk of looking like little more than a money follower. If that's the case, they can expect to rank higher on the "let go" list next time money gets tight... or possibly next week's board meeting.

I could be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling nothing good can come of this situation if you continue down this road. the chips may not fall immediately, but they will likely fall nonetheless.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

Ummmm

DB may not be to pleased with that if it backfires on him.

Your boss might not like being held over a barrel.

Your boss might not like what DB did, but he might be just as annoyed t you for entertaining the idea, using it as leverage and betraying the confidence of DB.

Just because DB was unethical, that does not excuse you being unethical toward him, especially if you also intend to exploit him.

No good can come of this except maybe very short term, but probably not even that. Most likely, your boss will view you as a snake and not to be trusted out of sight and DB will be extremely annoyed and out for blood.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[beej67]

I have a personal anecdote that has some similarities to yours:

I would not personally do it unless I had a way to work it out with TS so you left on good terms. I left my previous firm (A) on good terms, started my own firm, and I still do contract work for Firm A. One of their clients is another engineer (Firm B) who needed a stormwater specialist, and Firm A got Firm B's work because of me. Now that I'm at my own company, I still court Firm B as a client, and may have work coming up for them in the future, but any work related to our previous contracts I still do for Firm A, allowing them to mark up my fee and pass it on. I do this to maintain good relationships with all the firms involved. Those particular relationships were important to me.

I ALWAYS suggest leaving to start your own firm to anyone who has the ability and motivation. If the personal relationships involved are important to you, I'd suggest working with everyone involved to create an amicable situation for everyone that still allows you to leave your firm.

***

However, lets presume for a second those personal relationships mean little. Then lets presume you do your homework and find out that it's legal to leave and poach that client...

...Why bring DB in at all? Don't you know the guy at MN? Since you're the talent, and DB is the sneak, (aka "marketer") and the target is more contract work with MN, why don't you and your MN contact start the LLC and form an equitable split of the proceeds, cutting DB out entirely? What does he bring to the table, other than "marketing?"

I figure if you're going to piss a few people off chasing the cash, why hold back? Piss one more off and make more cash.

Presuming of course that it's all legal.


Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[DwayneM]

Thanks all for the buffet of food for thought.

More advice is welcome.

 

[DwayneM]

I'm considering backing away from this situation, advising DB that I'd like to continue to work for MN through TS. If MN doesn't go for that, or if things dry up to where TS let's me go, I'll approach DB and see if the offer still stands...

any thoughts?

 

[lacajun]

I would approach the ultimate client on my own, if work dried up at TS, and forget DB. His value system wouldn't match mine closely enough. I would always wonder what deal he was working behind my back to benefit himself and not the company.

 

[DwayneM]

Thanks LA Cajun... That is a more structured option, as I've been getting a positive feel from my contact at MN. I may look into hiring on with MN - likely in the same dept. or supervised by my contact.
While I'm confident DB is good at scaring up work (he got a bunch for TS) that is not my strong suit.

We'll see how the next few months play out. Thanks again.

 

[DwayneM]

Update - if anyone cares...

Some if the situation above is hypothetical, based on some side discussions DB and I had with a bit of my own supposition thrown in. (For instance, I doubt my MN contact would ever leave MN, and I'm to insecure to go solo.)
As I've been looking at options with other employers, and discussed a few openings with some potential, I came across a publicly posted opening with MN,inc. I applied through the public web site, to avoid any predisposition my contact at MN may have, and interviewed with someone else. Turns out they're replacing someone who left, and my background and career goals are a good fit. One thing that may appear improper is that I would be working in the same department as my contact.

So I'm hiring on with MN "free and clear" and have recently informed TS - and DB and others - accordingly. TS had assumed something was going on with DB, but I let him know I was already unsure about the future with TS, and MN had a public listing out (and probably won't work any EPA contracts in the new position).

So hopefully it doesn't look like a "poaching," as I tried to assure TS it was not. That was even a subject of some discussion on the interview - I liked MN's concern about even appearances, even though I thought it might have knocked me out of consideration.

I want to thank all of you for your professional insight. You've given me a lot of guidance. See ya 'round.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

So hopefully it doesn't look like a "poaching,"

Unfortunately, all it takes is the thought to cross someone's mind... doesn't matter how it came about.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com