Relay testers 4

[unclebob]

Hi all.

We're currently looking for a relay tester. We're trying to
find one with a database containing lots a relay types and easy to set up.

Right now, we have a Pulsar. But without the software to run it, it is somewhat difficult to set up...

Last Friday, we met a sales rep from Megger. People here
are not too happy with the presentation we've had for
the MPRT.

Anyway, Omicron, Doble and Manta are the next possible choices. Any comments or suggestion?

We are a service company and we're going to test more and
more generator protection relays. We looking for the right
equipment.

Thanks

 

[Milliamp]

Let me throw one more kink in the rope or rock in the soup, whatever. What if you don't do individual relay testing? What if you do system testing by playing simultaneous faults to both ends of the line? Any thoughts?

 

[DanDel]

ETAP PowerStation has a ARTTS module which allows direct testing of relays and comparison with the TCC curves in a coordination study, along with real-time monitoring of the system, to provide feedback into the curves on the TCC graphs. It may help with your needs.

http://www.etap.com

 

[lz5pl]

I am using Freja 300. It was chosen by economical reasons mainly (we found good second hand offer). I was disapointed with the software - it is steps beside Test Universe. It seems that after ascuisition from GE, Programma stopped their development. Big advantage of this test set is the possibility to operate from the front panel without PC. My guys tested in two days half of a generator protection functions until they receive new laptop instead of the broken one!

Omicron is in my view the Mercedes of test sets. Unfortunately also pricewise! But if the price is not so big problem, CMC256 would be my choise, probably as the Mercedes .

ISA - DRTS6: a friend of mine is using it very intensively almost two years without any problems. I am a bit suspicious about the quality of Italian electronics, but in this case I have nothing to say. Software of this tester is also close to Test Universe, and upgrades are free - very good option!. If Italians were more flexible with their offer, I would buy DRTS6 instead of Freja300. By the way, new Freja300 costs more than new DRTS6, so if you have to choose new one ISA should be the winner.


Regarding the simultaneous testing on both ends of the line - at least any of this 3 tester with which I have personal experience, has GPS option to synchronize injection of two testers. Good option, but I doubth how frequently it is used. For the moment this advantage never have been required in my practice.

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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[00123456]

My reply is to Mr.MilliAmps,

Why not? It is possible to do with End-to-End Testing. These is the procedure if you can use F6150 & CMC256-6;

Step:-1
If you can use GPS receiver annetena on both end & just synchronise both the instrument on time.

Step:-2
Create Phase to Phase/3-ph & Phase to ground faults in STATE SIMULATION & STATE SEQUENCE modules with the help of power system model (Single Line/Parallel line/Parallel line with Tap etc.)

Step:-3
Apply faults from both end simultaneoulsy & see the bahivour of the scheme operations including carrier send carrier receive signals.

It is very easy once you will do it.

Reply is to Mr.Dandel,
What you are suggeting to test with ETAP & ARTTS? Over current & earth fault relay co-ordinations & testing?

My understating is; that you can do with any numerical relay testing instruments. I have used ETAP POWER STATION 2.5 version (Load flow, SC & TCC modules), it is calculating fault currecnts on various bus based on input data. Another important thing is; ETAP/EDSA/CYME etc. freq. domain programs whivh good for power system studies/analysis not for relay performance testing. For relay performance testing; EMTP/ATP/PSCAD/NETOMAC softwares are good to create transient conditions even same files (.cgf/pl4) can be used for ened to end testing. This is only the relistic method to check the performance of Distance schemes.

In theory; there is no difference in theory & practice but in practice; there is some!!!!!!!!

Thanks

 

[lz5pl]

In theory; there is no difference in theory & practice but in practice; there is some!!!!!!!!
----------
00123456, I see that some values are the same all over the world! This was one of the main reasons for me to choose engineering profession - the law of Ohm is not ideologically dependent.

Thank you for the nice explanation about end-to-end testing. When our company became rich enough to buy two Omicrons I will use it, but now I will pray the customer not to ask for such tests ;-)

http://www.triel.dir.bg

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[00123456]

Iz5PL,
I can understand commercial problem, but End to End testing is also possible to do with FREJA300 & FRAJAWIN 5.1 SOFTWARE if you have two instruments with external sync. modules. Programma (Now, GE) is providing GPS-100 receiver that can able to generate 5V TTL-signal on specified time.
Every thing is not a big thing, only thing, you need to just some!!!!!!!
Thanks

 

[lz5pl]

I am totally agree with you, 00123456, end-to-end test is the closest one to real conditions. But until the customer doesn't ask for it, according to me it is not necessary to enter in such complications. It is simply not economically reasonable. Of course I know that Freja also has this feature, as well as DRTS6. But the if I will invest in second tester it will not be Freja. Probably I will look for CMC-256 or DRTS6.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[00123456]

Iz5PL,
If you have one Freja300 + FrejaWin software & one DRTS6 + ISAWIZARD software then also it is possible to do end to end testing for distance protection. It's 3-4 cycles difference between FREJA300 & DRTS6 for activation of sources that time you need to enter in one of the software.

Very simple!!!!

Thanks

 

[lz5pl]

Good idea, thank you!

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[DanDel]

The ETAP PowerStation software now has a module that allows relay testing, with direct communication between the software performing real-time monitoring of the system and a relay test set. Check out the website for more info.

 

[00123456]

Hi,
Sorry,i am late
I know ETAP power station software is having module or option that allows relay testing, with direct communication between software & DRT6 or ART3 (ISA make) instruments on desired freq. sampling rates (say; 2kHz, 5kHz, 10kHz or 20kHz etc.), but again i am saying it's a ETAP is a freq. domain program it's not a electromagnetic transient program. So, it it just creating fault waveform including dc offset with higher sampling rates not more. same thing that you can able to generate by using state sequence or state simulation program in relay testing softwqare. ETAP can not able to simulate dynamic characteristics of electrical networks based like EMTP/ATP/PSCAD-EMTDC.

i.e. suppose i want to simulate transient ground fault in series compensated lines or ungrounded system (pi section or T-section) then EMTP/ATP & PSCAD can able to simulate fault with electrical damping & it's effect on other two phases also but, this is not possible through ETAP/EDSA/SKM/CYME any freq. domain prog. that why EMTP/ATP/PSCAD-EMTDC are the best electromagnetic -transient program to simulate real time simulation for relay development purpose.

ETAP is good for power suytem studies (i.e. short circuit, load flow, harmonic analysis, stabilty etc.)not for relay development works or performance testing.

Thanks

 

[00123456]

Hi,
I forgot to say one more thing in my earlier discussion;

ETAP, PSS/E, EUROSTAGE, SIMPOW, SKM, CYME etc. Electromechanical Transient Programs & EMTP/ATP, PSCAD/EMTDC, NETOMAC etc. Electromegnatic Transient Programs.

Electromechanical Transient Programs are good to study for Power system analysis (i.e. short circuit study, Loadflow, Harmonic analysis & Transient stability etc.), but application of these programms are very less for relay developement works.

Elecrtomegnatic Transient programms are very good for relay developement works; it can able to generate very fast transient ground faults in ungrounded systems as well as series compensated networs, SSRC, Ferro-resonance, Network harmonics-resonances, Switching over voltages, Heavy capacitor inrush currents, TR magnetizing inrush currents, CVT transients and somany things. Sampling rate is also very very then Ele-mech. Transient programms.

Thanks

 

[lz5pl]

Now after this long discussion about features of various numerical testers I would like to remember a small case from my practice. 15 years ago I went on commissioning of new s/s in Egypt and found that there is no phase shifter delivered for testing of 67/67N relays. We had TURH - for youngsters it is electromechanical test set from Programma specially designed for impedance relays, Sverker, lab autotransformer 250/250 V, several measuring instruments, etc. HiTech electromechanical equipment.
Finally I "invented" my test system using: 3-phase power supply transformer 380/110 V (from TURH set), lab autotransformer, variable rheostat, ammeter and phase angle meter. And by this "invention" more than 50 relays were tested!
My young engineers now are probably more intelligent than me, but I really doubt whether they could imagine this scheme. Starting directly with numerical tester creates specific way of thinking and IMHO cuts imagination.
But please, don't ask me to test relays with this setup now!

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant