Report a Board violation discovered on ENG-TIPs? 3

[ImminentCollapse]

Obviously this is a carry-over from the "Report a Client for Fraud" thread. Moon161's post got me thinking, there is probably plenty enough information now for the more (or less) astute to begin narrowing down this project/client/company/individuals.

It appears to be a pretty egregious case. So, anyone licensed in Casseopia's jurisdiction getting squeamish?

Where is the line for reporting something like this as an unrelated third party in a not-so-anonymous forum? I don't know.

IC

 

[jmw]

Pat, you have never attempted CCTV recording of criminals?
Where we lived before one of our neighbours was continually harassed by a gang of yobs.
We called the police on one occassion and when they came and spoke to us, admitting they knew who these people were, we suggested that next time we would video them with the SB's cam corder.
"Oh no," said the Police," you can't do that unless you put up all the appropriate signs warning that CCTV filming is going on.

As ever, the rights of criminals are paramount in liberal societies and to heck with the rights of law abiding citizens.

Nothing surprises me anymore about the stupidity of the law.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TheTick]

The private copies may be illegal, but they could at least serve as a source to point investigators in the right direction (e.g. tell them to look for such-and-such email sent on this date).

 

[MacGyverS2000]

<chuckle> Reread my last post.. that should be "quashed", minus the 's'. It's not a bug...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[casseopeia]

How is keeping copies of my own work illegal? I routinely keep the progression of revisions to my reports to track changes, if only to go back and learn what is acceptable stylistically. I code my file names with 'ORIG' (for my original submission), 'EDIT' (for editorial review), 'EXEC' (for executive review), 'CLIENT" (for client review), etc. All of the versions are kept in electronic form in a project folder on my desktop and only the final version is put into the central project file. This is not my choice. I'm not (nor are any of the PM's) allowed to file documents onto the main server. So the only place for these documents is on my PC, and whatever hard copy I keep.

And if those copies come in handy for something else, so what? It's not like I broke in and rifled through some top secret company files. These are personal work files.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[MacGyverS2000]

The work you do is "for hire"... the company owns it, not you, even though you ran the numbers, drew the diagrams, etc. You were paid a fair wage (with "fair" obviously being debatable) for the work accomplished.

Keeping it on your work PC is fine... removing it from the premises in any form (email, electronic copy on a flash drive, printouts, etc.), especially if you are no longer employed there (which would be the case if you walk or they give you the boot), could be considered unlawful possession.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[jmw]

"Fruit of the poisoned tree" is, I think, the legal term.
It means no matter what hard evidence there is showing the guy to be a crook of the first order, if that evidence was obtained from an illegal or inadmissible source, any discoveries subsequently made are also inadmissible.

Much of the law is not about truth nor even about justice.
It's about the rules or legal procedure, the rules of evidence.
It is about protecting the rights of offenders.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cvg]

many engineers routinely carry data with them off the premises both during working and non-working hours in multiple different ways. In fact, salaried professionals do not always have firm working hours. Unless there is a policy preventing use of personal computers or personal email accounts for work business, that is often (almost always) allowed. For instance, I am allowed to and often do connect to the corporate outlook system, read email, download files and work at home or from anywhere. Perfectly legal and copies of work files reside on my home computer, laptop, numerous flash drives and in emails on both corporate and personal email accounts. All perfectly legal. It's up to the lawyers to discover the information it and get it admitted into court.

 

[patprimmer]

I would think if you had copies, but did not disclose them until after discovery, you could claim they where found on the premises on say a memory stick and then acquired legally. I hardly think a defense of they must have been obtained illegally because we went to a great deal of trouble to destroy them before discovery would hold up, but like I said, let your lawyer know you "might have access" and let him decide what when and how they might be used.

Also remember TV show law does not always accurately reflect real law any more than CSI type shows accurately reflect science.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Fruit of the poisoned tree, that's it... thanks, j.


cvg, while employed, that holds up, assuming the company is made aware said material exists (or it's in the company handbook, etc.)... the moment she walks or is released from employment, the material must be immediately destroyed or returned.


Pat, the same holds true for your example... should the employee "magically" find the material some time after loss of employment and fail to destroy/return it immediately, they are in breach. The judge may even look down about the sudden appearance of the material after a lawsuit has begun.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[jmw]

Like News of the world ordering 300,000 emails destroyed by their Indian server operatives in anticipation of the court case on phone hacking?
Like Ollie North and the shredder? It didn't do him any harm.....

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cvg]

while employed, that holds up, assuming the company is made aware said material exists (or it's in the company handbook, etc.)... the moment she walks or is released from employment, the material must be immediately destroyed or returned.

it all depends on your company policies or any employment contract or possibly on any local laws. our company has no requirement to make them aware of any data or document that is removed from the office. So far I see no policies by my company that require an employee to return or destroy anything they have.
The policy manual appears to be silent on this matter. I'm not sure what agreement, law or contract would be "breached". I think this might be better answered by a more qualified person such as an attorney...

 

[hokie66]

The legality of keeping information showing that Cass's signature was forged and that fraud is being committed is a subject for her lawyer, when she gets one. Engineers have all sorts of opinions about this, none of which will count in court.

 

[TED7]

I hid one or two "CYA" documents on the premises of a former employer should I require them at a later date. Nothing on the level of fraud etc. just documentation backing up decisions made on various matters.

This I assume gets around the "taking company property (work) off premises" as it's still there, and it's immune to deletion as the originals may still be deleted (satisfying the goals of those who may find it in there interests) but the backups are hidden. Should they be required, there location is known, just need to find a legal way of obtaining them. It may be worth making a stash of documentation on a CD (40 year estimated lifespan) for example and locating it somewhere obscure.

I have a note at home detailing the location and brief contents of the files should I forget.

This is of course assuming they have not been discovered.

Will
Sheffield UK
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

 

[jmw]

Now that's some serious CYA.... it makes one wonder what the situation was that required this... but if you'd been going to tell us, you'd have said already.
We'll just keep on wondering.

Mind you, "time capsules" have a habit of disappointing.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TED7]

Jmw - Sorry to dissapoint but its not the horror story you were likely assuming.

I was once put forward for disciplinary action (which was suggested to my boss the day all the directors went abroad on business) for something which apparently went down the creek without a paddle and cost the company a fair bit of cash. It was a surprise to me as the only work I did on the project was a matter entirely unrelated. My boss found this also surprising when I told him I couldnt have been involved. He got in touch with the directors who didn't want to know about it.

When you get promoted from 'Design Engineer' to 'Fall Guy' it makes you inclined to keep private copies of just about everything which is discussed via a non controlled medium.

Will
Sheffield UK
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

 

[jmw]

Oh yes, the fall guy role and directors who don't want the truth, the want a scapegoat.
Been there, done that and got the T shirt.
Waste of time documenting it because directors never actually want to know what went wrong in case it is something they did.
So much safer to blame some one else, preferably someone who knows little about the job (that way they have no idea what went wrong either while who ever really was responsible could prove an embarrassment if picked on).

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lacajun]

I watched executive management claim they weren't on a witch hunt to get information. It was a witch hunt and they got the engineer and not the foreman.

An tradesman was hurt badly because he failed to lock out equipment, which fell on him. According to management, the engineer should have been there not his foreman, who is management, to ensure the tradesman was using proper procedures. The tradesman received no punishment and he was ultimately responsible for his own safety.

What a bunch of dumb butts. They lost the engineer and he's a very good engineer. Dedicated, too, beyond belief.

He got a letter in his file and no raises for 5 years because of that incident and the subsequent witch hunt that really wasn't a witch hunt.

It's stuff like that, which turns people against management. Bystanders get a bad taste, too.

 

[FeX32]

ouch! lacajun
That's very stiff.


Fe

 

[lacajun]

FeX32, yes it is but that's mostly the environment I know.

 

[FeX32]

Well I feel for you then.
I know how hard it can be to get management to understand the will of engineers.
That tradesman should be responsible for his own doing.


Fe