Road Safety, car design vs driver skill vs legislation vs cost benifit 2

[patprimmer]

A recent thread about some guy trying to justify disabling his ABS lead to the above topics being broached in an ad hock manner.

I have seen over the years many opinions and some statistics on the complex issues raised above.

I have serious doubts about some opinions and data, and wonder what the truth is.

I will throw up a bunch of open questions, or provocative statements to catalyse some discussion, and hopefully identify some fact and myth.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
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[digger242j]

"As long as 99% of the drivers on the road DO NOT POSESS THE NECESSARY SKILLS OR PRACTICAL TRAINING to avoid getting into emergency situations, and/or getting out of them, AND those very same drivers consider themselves ABOVE AVERAGE, there will be no revolution in skill training. "

I think in one respect, evelrod has hit the nail on the head. If 100% of the drivers on the road were of the mindset that they do *not* posess the necessary skills to get out of an emergency situation then all they'd have left would be to excercise the skills they've be given to avoid getting into those situations. I believe that failure to properly recognize personal limitations, as weighed against the veritable universe of unpredictable hazards is "the root of all evil", so to speak.

While I've realized recently that these days I'm driving more like an old fuddyduddy, I hadn't given much thought to what the underlying phiosophy was until I read this discussion.

That having been said, I'm not sure that a *revolution* in skill training is what's called for. The last training I had was my high school "Driver's Ed" class, in 1972. I'm sure my instructors would be proud to know that after all these years the message they were trying to teach then has finally sunk in.

 

[mc6809e]

Driver impatience is the number one cause of accidents, IMHO.

Of course, how do you teach someone to wait until they sober-up before driving, or to drive more slowly on the roads during rain, or to drive the speed limit and be late for that dinner appointment, or to take their time waiting for a clear opening before pulling out into traffic?

 

[jmw]

It is not speed that kills but bad driving. Unfortunately speed is easy to measure and makes money.

If speed really were the concern it is easily curbed.
In the UK the british police never drive at the speed limit unless they wish to control the trafic. They are either speeding themseleves to some incident or other (or off watch) or they are travelling at 5mph below the limit.

AT 5mph below the limit traffic slows, passes them at a legal rate and then, when two or three cars have interposed themseleves between the police car and themselves, they speed up again. This is known as the "legal bubble".

If and when the police drive at the limit, no traffic can pass them. This raidly creates a mobile road block and motorways can become blocked for miles.

In short, they can more effectively control the speed with one police car per 100 miles of road than a speed camera every mile. The fact that they don't speaks volumes.

JMW

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[EnglishMuffin]

How things seem to have changed in Britain. From what you say, it sounds just like the US now - ie pure misery. When I lived in Britain in the early seventies, I rarely paid any attention to speed limits, and never on motorways. I never saw anyone ticketed on motorways, and habitually drove in the fast lane at 100 mph. Occasionally, I would glance across and see a cop in the slow lane doing about 50. It didn't seem to bother them - live and let live. They didn't even have in-car radar - it was effectively like the autobahn. When I first started driving, it actually was exactly like the autobahn - no speed limit at all. Pure heaven.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Incidentally, I just read this on the Fox site:

A bill passed by the California state Senate would subject drivers who talk on the phone, put on makeup, drink, eat, smoke, interact with pets or kids, read, write, tune the radio or program hand-held devices like Blackberries to fines of $35 for the first offense and $150 for the second.

The bill is currently under review in the state House of Representatives. Not all senators are in favor of it, with state Sen. Tom McClintock saying it’s simply a cash cow to fill California’s lean piggy bank.

 

[jmw]

Using a mobile phone while driving is now an offense in the UK. i.e. not using a hands free kit. A hands free car kit which hooks into the cars radio speakers and interupts the radio is ideal and allowed (still) but there are lots of non permanent kits available to provide hands free and of course, some phones have a hands free option when you have an earpiece connected.

I am therefore 100% behind this legislation; it makes sense and is achievable for any mobile phone user. Drivers with phones pressed to their ears are a real menace.

"Driving without due care and attention" covers a multi-tude of sins. and is easier to prosecute than the more serious "Dangerous Driving". I suspect it often gets used for convenience. Certainly there have been successful prosecutions of drivers eating chocolate bars as they drive.

There was a case some years ago where a driver was staying strictly to the speed limit on a dual carriageway but in the fast lane (The UK has a pass on the offside only law, much abused). Faster traffic would be brought to heel by this driver, would flash their lights, indicate and finally pass on the near side. Several car lengths back, in the nearside lane was an unmarked police car busy recording all those driveres who passed on the nearside before accelerating to ilegal speeds. The police finally prosecuted the "speed sherif" in the fast lane and called the other drivers as witnesses. I doubt it would happen in this day and age where every young coppers ambition is to book the minister of transport or chief constables in transit, but the point is that before the camera, the police would patrol the roads and would use address their powers against the silly, the stupid, the arrogant and the dangerous.
For all the cameras on the roads, including video and traffic management, one never hears that the technology is used to remove the dangerous drivers.



JMW

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[jmw]

A last comment on speed:
The UK governement has decided that for minor speed camera offenses, only two points and a small fine will be levied but for serious offenses, the penalty increases from 4 points to six and a serious fine.

This is presented as a good deal.

Previously the speed cameras were often (but not exclusively)set only to detect serious offenses. SO far from being a concession this suggests a zero tolerance approach to generate even more money but without disqualifying the minor offenders, a cash grab... it no good disqualifying drivers after they've paid over just £120. This way they can catch far more drivers and keep them on the road for longer so they can pay more fines. A disqualified driver can't generate revenue.

JMW

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[EnglishMuffin]

jmw : Are you kidding ? A $150 fine for tuning the radio ? This is an outrageous piece of legislation and totally unenforcible! I thought I was living in the land of the free. When are governments going to treat people like responsible adults ? Of course, the next step would be to automatically disable the radio tuning controls when the vehicle is moving on cars sold in California, or any other state that passes similar legislation. Arnold - you have to put a stop to this ...

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Sorry - I know this isn't the grammar forum but "unenforcible" should have read "unenforceable".

 

[GregLocock]

Lockout radio tuning while on the move?

Hmm. That is an excellent idea. Incredibly unpopular, but given that the average customer is (snip usual rant) it would be a good step forward. I often pick up new cars with no preset radio stations. I once drove for 5 km (3 miles) while setting the radio up, and had no memory of that road when I finally surfaced.

So far as liberty goes, your freedom to move your fist stops at the skin of my nose.


Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[EnglishMuffin]

An excellent idea ??? Unless you too are kidding, give me a break Greg! But why stop there? Why not lock out the heating & ventilating and the GPS navigation controls as well? (In my car the heating controls are no less complicated than the radio). And naturally, all ashtrays need to be positioned out of reach of the driver. (Not that I care personally, being a non smoker). Then we will of course see all manner of people pulling over on the hard shoulder while they frantically struggle to change settings, and then pull back into traffic again - potentially causing more accidents than ever. And there will be a healthy market for aftermarket devices enabling one to override the lockout circuitry. Of course, there will be the inevitable exceptions for law enforcement officers, who, unlike the rest of us, and being the highly trained professionals that they are, can easily manage to master the art of radio communications and controlling a plethora of other devices, even while simultaneously carrying out high speed pursuits. I suppose eventually everything will be hands free with voice recognition a la Star Trek. But that’s a ways away, and will no doubt usher in a new collection of problems.

 

[GregLocock]

I was serious.

Sure, click between presets, but I think there is a strong argument that no secondary control inside the car should need visual feedback.

I agree, people will circumvent these lockouts, OK, just make it punishable by the same penalty as any other roadworthiness defect.

50% of the customers won't fit lockouts, so that's a 50% reduction in these sorts of crashes anyway.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[patprimmer]

Re devices and controls distracting drivers.

I think this one would need the backing of law, as no manufacture would risk the buyer backlash unless forced to.

Also adjustment of some functions of heater/climate control are necessary to maintain clear vision.

I also think that simple controls like radio volume and station search on the steering wheel are not to distracting.

A simple method would be to place the more attention demanding controls out of the drivers reach and view, but still in easy reach of the passenger.

I have to admit to shaving, eating, doing up neckties etc etc while driving, but I mitigate the offence by carefully selecting my timing of such distractions.

Also, some actions can be done virtually subconsciously, while others take our concentration.

Another distraction I notice, is that when in an involved conversation using hands free, I can still focus on traffic and road conditions, but I lose concentration on navigating, and often find myself cruising past turnoffs.

Also, I mount my mobile phone between the steering wheel and the "A" pillar, so it is in the blind spot created by the "A" pillar, and regards line of sight it is just beside the drivers side external mirror.

I have wondered why cars sold predominantly to company fleets, like Australia's Falcon and Commodore, don't actually build in a mobile phone mounting platform in that spot.

I also wire in the radio mute function on my Nokia mobile. The feature is standard on every Nokia I ever had, but very few seem to actually wire it in.

Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[jmw]

In a recent accident case they found that the speeding driver had been watching a video on the in-car.
The best solution here is some kind of brain surgery.

You can't rely on passengers, if you have them. And in some cases they are more trouble and distraction than they are a help.

On long journeys it is not helped that the gender with the dominant genetic need to hold the steering wheel is usually the gender with map reading skills. It's at times like these that you realise that humans are, in some respects, badly designed. Ergo a talking navigational system is a reasonable idea but it had better have a gender neutral voice.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

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[notnats]

Even with preset radio stations, the press buttons are too tiny and sensitive to find without looking at them. Remember the old radios with big klunky press buttons to select programs? You could run your finger along and count the buttons without accidentally changing station or selecting "auto seek" or some other function.

Jeff

 

[GregLocock]

As Pat said, we have the minimum necessary set of audio controls built into the steering wheel on one side, and the cruise control on the other. This means you can drive without ever needing to look further down than the speedometer.

I'd have thought voice operated climate control was an obvious step forward.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[EnglishMuffin]

I have a heads-up display in my Vette. I find it invaluable (mainly for speed) and really miss it when I'm in another car. There has been talk of diplaying much more stuff on these, such as navigation etc. At what point does such a display become too big and even more distracting, I wonder?

 

[evelrod]

Ahhhhh, boys and girls. You make an old man's heart go pitter patter! Like I said, I never met a driver that did not think that he was in full control of the situation (no matter what it was), at least before the accident/incident! Post accident/incident introspection often reveals, to the honest among us, the flaw in that assumption.
... Never fear, the "engineers" (us guys), urged on by the "bean counters"(who themselves have been whipped into a veritable frenzy by the politicians/press), will come up with another overly complicated, high tech solution for what could be basically a cheap and easy, if not popular, fix. It is probably the best deal for those of you who still base your paycheque on the politically correct solutions to what is, to be sure, a political problem. Re.---"cars don't vote...", above!

Greg---One dark night, many years ago, I "lost" quite a few miles doing something similar. Also I have lost "hours" when driving cross country just last year---scary stuff!!!

Rod

PS: Generally I do not listen to the radio while driving---it interferes with my "overly active imagination"

 

[digger242j]

"I never met a driver that did not think that he was in full control of the situation (no matter what it was),..."

Which goes back to my comment earlier--I've learned that while I may be in full control of my own vehicle at all times, there can always be some element of "the situation" which may arise instantaneously, and be totally beyond my control...

As an aside, with reference to "speed traps"--Somewhere along the way I've come to believe that anyone who gets a speeding ticket deserves it. Why? Because a hidden cop with a radar gun is a prime example of a part of "the situation" that's outside of the driver's control. If your situational awareness is not sufficient to detect the speed trap and avoid the ticket, then what other (more potentially dangerous), hazards are you failing to detect?

 

[patprimmer]

digger

I never saw a hazard that travels toward you at the speed of light.

A radar trap can get you from so far away, that you might stop before reaching the source of it without even touching the brakes.

Does a policeman, deliberately hiding on the other side of the Armco, and behind a bush, about 500 yards away truly replicate a potential hazard that needs spotting.



Regards
pat pprimmer@acay.com.au
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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.