Running valves in series/parallel for isolation/drainage

[resilientsoma]

Is there a site where I can learn more about pipe diagrams?

Currently we use a mechanical setup to isolate hydraulics in 2 areas by turning a handle attached to a sprocket and chain, rotating the shaft to the other side where the valve is located - which is not accessible. The setup is not ideal, so would like to add another valve in series where it can be easily accessed. This isolation is an Interlock, not LOTO.

The mechanical setup consists of a handle (acts as gate one this side for no entry) that can be turned attached to a chain and sprocket that turns a shaft. The other side of the shaft is where the valves are in place. This side of the shaft is also attached with a chain and sprocket, turning the valve attached to a handle (acts as a gate on other side) to be isolated so there is no energy to the trough. The trough is the danger, which moves and can hurt someone severely. This is what the isolation is needed for.

The setup consists of turning a handle that turns two valves, one for drainage, and isolation, 2 valves acting as a 3-way valve. I would like to put another valve I'm not sure how to run this in series. The valves would be turned in series, and would drain in parallel (I assume).

Also, I'm not sure if there are OSHA requirements for this, since we are in the grandfather clause. What are the current redundancy requirements and for dual channels?

Your help is greatly appreciated!

 

[hsbcn]

This might not be detailed enough, but I found this tutorial really helpful:

http://chenected.aiche.org/series/interpret-piping-instrumentation-diagrams/

My focus: Alloy Valves Duplex Valves Monel Valves Inconel Valves [link titanium-valves.com]Titanium Valves[/url] Hastelloy Valves

 

[resilientsoma]

I thank you for your time & effort. I'm a new engineer w/ many new projects all the time, so have to try to get good at different engineering fields. I can be more specific once I learn this a little better. Thanks for guiding me to the correct spot!

 

[resilientsoma]

Okay I have read the articles and helped mostly with symbols. I have provided a picture below showing the setup; The problem is when this was installed, the hydraulics needs to be isolated for a safety feature. The problem is that it can only be accessed at one side; so the mechanical setup (lever, chain/sprocket, shaft) was put in to turn the level to isolate the valve in ONE AREA. There is obstructing machinery so they can't go around to close the valve fast enough due to the mechanic setup becoming quite old. Either I would replace the mechanical setup with a sturdier chain and sprocket; or do it the right way by either relocating the valve, or just the valves in series/parallel.

As explained in the previous post, the lever is attached to the valve, so when you turn the handle, it's attached to the chain/sprocket to a shaft, turning the chain/sprocket on the other side- isolating the valve. So I can put the isolating valve in the closer area, making it easier to turn, or run them in parallel/series to isolate/drain. Here are the pictures:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/geoff7382/E02B1350-A3FF-440C-97DA-2B79681A633A-653-000001BE17FCBD43.jpg[/IMG]]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/geoff7382/1D703AD7-B3C7-4CAB-857B-B7AC2D3A9687-663-000001C06F474571.jpg[/IMG]]

 

[gerhardl]

Is it possible to use an electro-mecanical valve, or a solenoid valve again operating an oil-hydraulic operated valve in stead of a constructed mechanical solution?

All types exists on the market, suitable both for draining and isolation. EX and/or redundancy rigging should be no problem.

 

[resilientsoma]

I have considered this, but I'm not sure with the current OSHA codes with Interlocks. Since we are with the grandfather clause, we would have to change a lot of things if went to electrical. I am trying to keep it mechanical, but need help how to run pipes/valves in series/parallel so the hydraulics can be isolated in 2 locations, not just 1. The picture you see above works, but is very old and needs something better, so reworking the pipe/valve layout is desired. I appreciate your input @gerhardl !

 

[resilientsoma]

Anyone know how to isolate/drain in series/parallel with the setup I have pictured? Am I missing something from the internet link posted by hsbcn? Thank you!

 

[resilientsoma]

Posting to put this thread on the top!

How do I add extra valves to have in 2 locations to isolate in series and drain in parallel ? Anybody have experience w/ valves that have Interlocking?

 

[resilientsoma]

To the top, help please. Need to see what ways to isolate/drain 1 hydraulic line in 2 locations (see picture above).

 

[resilientsoma]

nobody?

 

[resilientsoma]

to the top ... please help!

 

[EnergyMix]

Resilientsoma

Enough already!!

I think at this point you need to hire a consultant who can come in and actually look at your configuration, look at what you mean about your "grandfather clauses" and decide what's best for your company. What you've shown isn't enough of a diagram for anyone to understand what you're talking about. (And please don't post a full diagram. I'm not interested in playing consultant for free. HIRE SOMEONE.)

By the way, you can find the current OSHA regualtions on the WEB (the US government is funny that way, they believe in posting their regulations online so everybody can read them.) Here's a link:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/submitcitation.action?publication=CFR

You want Part 29. After that, I'd need more information about your industry to try and figure out what section you should go to. But since you know your industry, you can do that yourself. (And, no, don't post your industry. Again, at this point, it's up to you to start figuring out things on your own or to hire someone.)

 

[resilientsoma]

@EnergyMix

It's obvious having an expert come look at my setup, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I do not expect free consultation. If this is the case, 80% of these threads on this forum should be red-flagged. I am a new engineer and don't have all the answers unfortunately. I use this forum for getting help and pointed in the right direction, not to get flamed with sarcasm, bullying, and pointing out obvious things like I'm a child.

If you read my posts, I am trying to get pointed in the correct direction which is how to add a valve in series to my existing setup; so I can isolate and drain the hydraulics in 2 locations.

Thanks for the link ...

 

[EnergyMix]

Resilent,

I was not trying to be sarcastic, to be a bully, or to point out the obvious. Instead I was responding to your four posts of "to the top" and to explain why doing it a fifth time wouldn't work. I understand you're new. So are lots of other people. The difference lies in what you do that makes the people on the forum want to volunteer their time to help you solve your problem.

You've gotten off on the wrong foot. Now you need to show that you're using that engineering degree and problem solving ability for which your company hired you. Ask questions of the operators and the other old timers. Use the link that I gave you to look up the regulations. Go talk to your company lawyers about that grandfather clause. Figure out what you need. Come back with more targeted questions when you have more information about your interlocks.

 

[resilientsoma]

@ EnergyMix :

Well, reading your post from the other side comes off in a different way. It seemed like you were being very sarcastic and not trying to help at all. I guess we got off on the wrong foot, a lot can be interpreted incorrectly via internet. To be honest though, I'm not really sure how to even look up standards with the site provided. I don't know how you got Part 29...

I have been doing research with this setup; but I have been doing many other projects as well, not just hydraulics. I am having an expert come in with to discuss OSHA codes/regulations, so that's one thing I'm doing right. People here don't have much experience with hydraulics and OSHA codes though, so that's why I was trying to at least get in the right direction with running valves in series/parallel to isolate and drain in 2 locations. From there, I can get a good idea of a number of proposals and see if they are against any OSHA regulation. I wish I can edit these posts because my main goal as of now is simply how to add a valve in series so I can isolate/drain a hydraulic line in 2 locations.

Thank you, and glad we are off on the right foot now.

 

[EnergyMix]

Resilient, I apologize that you took my post in that manner. As I said, it wasn't meant that way, though it was meant to express exasperation. I'd also like to point out that, from my end, I felt that you came across as dismissive of the two people that tried to help and were very vague about what you meant about the "grandfather clause." Both of those also fed into my exasperation.

I got to Part 29 by knowing the regulations, something that comes with experience. Part 29 is where the OSHA regulations exist. I realized you wouldn't know that off the top of your head and so, instead of making you hunt for it, I provided it. The Code of Federal Regulations may seem daunting at first, but if you start reading it, you'll find it is pretty straight forward. There's an index at the front of each Part to determine which section applies to your area.

I'm sure you're doing a lot of things right and I know you've got a lot of things on your plate. I'm glad you've got an expert coming in to help you. They will probably be able to guide you a lot better than anyone here, because they will be able to see the actual configuration, will recognize your industry (that's a big item), will get to the bottom of that grandfather clause and be able to make the recommendations that you need. Sometimes knowing when to get that expert help is the absolutely right thing to do. Good for you!

Maybe this post makes amends between us a bit.

 

[resilientsoma]

EnergyMix,

I appreciate the apology, and sorry for the counter-strike; I was too aggressive due to taking it the wrong way. Also, I was not trying to be dismissive to the other members at all. I feel bad if it came off that way. As far as an update with this, I'm pretty sure our OSHA grandfather clause is clear as mud and will most likely have to be configured with current OSHA codes. This hydraulic machinery is to be isolated and drained safely, so we cannot take a chance with safety with people being in harms way.

I will go through the OSHA regs you posted this week. I'm currently going through a lot of ANSI codes now with LOTO/Interlocks so when the expert comes in I'll be fully prepared.

I'm still on the hunt for valve basics though; it's hard to understand pipe networks and how to add valves in series/parallel. Any help with that would be awesome. I tried searching and trying to get help from people, but I'm hitting a wall for now.

 

[EnergyMix]

resilentsoma, If you want to isolate something, you use two valves in series (or a valve and a pipe cap.) You use two valves in parallel when you want to provide a bypass around something. Take a piece of paper and sketch it out and think of how the water would flow. You try not to add any more valves than you need because then you have to maintain them and if they are in hard to reach places, that's a real expletive pain, especially if you have to shutdown and drain equipment.