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Saw something scary on my vacation 7

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TehMightyEngineer

TehMightyEngineer

Structural
Aug 1, 2009
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So, I went on a grand vacation a few weeks ago. Great time, visited my home state and had a blast. However the hotel I stayed at, while a nice enough hotel, definitely had some age to it.

The balconies, shown below, were grossly unstable. They appeared to be lightweight concrete panels with unknown reinforcement that spanned between the two vertical walls. It did not connect to the main structure but didn't seem terrible in itself. However, the two walls and slab were only connected to the structure by a handful of nails. I know this because my balcony had pulled away from the structure about 1 inch and I could see all the fasteners. The lack of lateral bracing was obvious; by gently rocking my weight back and forth I could induce a good 1-2 inch lateral deflection in the balcony (and immediately ceased my structural load testing and declared the balcony verboten!).

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Overall, I suspect I could pull the balcony down with my bare hands and highly doubt 40 PSF could ever exist on this without a collapse. I have no idea how these things withstand any sort of snow or wind load and am seriously concerned that these balconies will fail soon with some injuries or loss of life.

So, being a newly licensed engineer; what does one do in this situation? Per the engineering code of ethics "engineers having knowledge of any alleged violation of this Code shall report thereon to appropriate professional bodies and, when relevant, also to public authorities, and cooperate with the proper authorities in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required." Is this the appropriate response? I highly doubt that the hotel will do anything about this but I will obviously send them something at a minimum.

Thoughts?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
 
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Probably, but was wondering if people think going beyond the owner was appropriate or should I send a letter to only them first?

If I do should it be a letter to the state board of engineers or another authority?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
 
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I don't know if I would go so far as to start declaring things to be "Code violations" (paraphrasing), especially as a newly licensed - and NO, that does NOT mean incompetent or inexperienced - engineer. How much drama or trouble are you prepared to invite into your life, and are you prepared to stand up in a court of law and testify as an expert or defend yourself and your credentials if things blow up in your face and some engineer on the other side of things complains about *you* in retaliation?

Not worth it.

I would write a letter of concern to the hotel management and leave it at that. I might send a separate letter to the local Regulatory authority so that a building inspector might be required to go out and have a look and, if necessary, take things from there. In my mind, that even exceeds the due diligence required from you under these particular circumstances.
 
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I'm currently going through depositions in string of patent-review proceedings (expert witness) and have become extremely sensitive to word choices. In a deposition last month defending a declaration where I had written one editorial word in a paragraph and spent 20 minutes defending a word choice that I didn't actually need to make.

My point is that you did see enough to concern you. You did not see design drawings, fabrication, and/or installation. For all you know if you reviewed the drawings you might sign off on the design, if you were there during construction you might find that it met the code (it doesn't sound like it, but you don't know). Were I in your position I'd probably write a letter to the hotel (with a copy to corporate if it is a chain) expressing: (1) the room number; (2) the date(s) of your stay; (3) your actual observations (i.e., balcony pulled away from the wall, appears the connection was nailed instead of screwed, deck had considerable lateral movement, etc.) WITHOUT ever using the phrases "substandard construction", "code violation", or "I will report ...". Just the facts ma'am. If they do nothing and someone is injured, your letter will become discoverable and you'll probably get dragged in, but as a witness not as a plaintiff (most likely). As a P.E. you have an obligation to public safety. In a much milder case (i.e., a P.E. noticed that the exit doors in a new pre-school opened inwards rather than outwards as is required by the code for a building of that occupancy) the board in my state said that the P.E. met his obligation by notifying the building owner and not the board. Mileage may vary.

Who knows, I recently went out of my way to report a defect in a room in a chain hotel and they thanked me by giving me enough points on my rewards program for a night in a hotel. Not all good deeds go unpunished.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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Thank you SNORGY and David. Exactly why I asked this question and your answers have given me plenty of good direction.

SNORGY: Yes, I would like to think myself a competent engineer, but as I was only licensed last December I'm fully aware that I have little experience in the professional part of "professional engineer". Definitely glad to have this board as a resource. My precise concern was that I would rock the boat too hard and be forced to either defend my concerns or even be brought into a legal battle. Above all I don't want to open myself up to liability by either action or inaction.

David: Your advice on terms to avoid is highly valued. I'll definitely do that and word my letter such that I show I have a concern solely based on incomplete information and that my only advice is further evaluation to determine the proper response is required.

I believe my course of action will be to send a letter of my concerns to the hotel owner. Unless I get the strong feeling that they are indifferent to my concerns and will take no action, I will not send a letter to the state board.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
 
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This may be a case where snail mail is the best method of communication.
Send the letter with a return confirmation of its receipt to the hotel manager.
You will have electronic tracking of the delivery as well as a postcard ackmowledging receipt.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli
 
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looslib, that's what I was thinking when I said proof of delivery. Email you can't really guarantee getting a receipt acknowledgement unless I'm missing something (which with Luddite like me is possible).

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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Sending the letter return-receipt-requested will certainly get their attention, but don't count on ever seeing the little green card again. The last 4 of those I sent did not come back, your tax dollars at work. For that kind of communication I always staple the receipt to my copy before filing. If the green card comes back then I add that to the file, but if it doesn't then I still have a record I tried. You could send it FedEx or UPS and get a more reliable receipt notification, but every business gets dozens of those a day and it might not stand out from the noise. I'd go with the little green card.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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e-mail is so easy that it is hard to take seriously, we all get dozens or hundreds of unsolicited e-mails every day and it is really easy to say "it got lost in the storm" even with a read receipt (I get 20 of them a day from vendors that are trying to make sure their purchased lists work). Appearance of an honest effort here is important to keep yourself on the "witness" side of the line between plaintiff and defendant.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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not much to add to the great advice given. If I was in your shoes, I likely would have verbally told the manage on-site about the problem followed up by something in writing. I don't think a stamp is necessary as long as you identify yourself and make it clear you know what you're talking about.
 
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I wouldn't stamp it. Not sure I'd include the P.E. in my letter. "I am a structural engineer who recently stayed at your facility and I noticed ..." is just as strong as "As a Professional Engineer I noticed ..." without making the existence of your insurance immediately obvious. I'd sign it "John Doe" not "John Doe, P.E.". The P.E. means more to the courts and regulators than to the general public.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
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Hmmmm, I think I'm going to include PE and title as a professional engineer as I'm of the opinion I shouldn't ever be afraid of my license. In addition, if they do drag me into a legal battle I want to make sure my professional liability insurance covers it. However, I've noted in multiple places that I am not licensed in their state and not providing engineering design services.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
 
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TehMightyEngineer, While there are topics we disagree on, zdas04 is a pretty smart and experienced guy. From previous posts he's got a better handle on some of the legal implications of PE etc. than many of us.

If he's questioning whether to say PE then I'd think long and hard about if I thought I knew better.

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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