Saw something scary on my vacation 7

[TehMightyEngineer]

So, I went on a grand vacation a few weeks ago. Great time, visited my home state and had a blast. However the hotel I stayed at, while a nice enough hotel, definitely had some age to it.

The balconies, shown below, were grossly unstable. They appeared to be lightweight concrete panels with unknown reinforcement that spanned between the two vertical walls. It did not connect to the main structure but didn't seem terrible in itself. However, the two walls and slab were only connected to the structure by a handful of nails. I know this because my balcony had pulled away from the structure about 1 inch and I could see all the fasteners. The lack of lateral bracing was obvious; by gently rocking my weight back and forth I could induce a good 1-2 inch lateral deflection in the balcony (and immediately ceased my structural load testing and declared the balcony verboten!).

Overall, I suspect I could pull the balcony down with my bare hands and highly doubt 40 PSF could ever exist on this without a collapse. I have no idea how these things withstand any sort of snow or wind load and am seriously concerned that these balconies will fail soon with some injuries or loss of life.

So, being a newly licensed engineer; what does one do in this situation? Per the engineering code of ethics "engineers having knowledge of any alleged violation of this Code shall report thereon to appropriate professional bodies and, when relevant, also to public authorities, and cooperate with the proper authorities in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required." Is this the appropriate response? I highly doubt that the hotel will do anything about this but I will obviously send them something at a minimum.

Thoughts?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I guess my question is now, how do I indicate I am not a licensed engineer in the state the hotel was in without also indicating or implying that I am a licensed engineer in my home state?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[SNORGY]

TehMightyEngineer,

Legally, you were a patron or guest in a hotel. Nothing more. You are under no legal obligation to tell anyone you are an engineer. That's nobody's business but yours. Heck, for all anyone knows, you never saw any balconies and nobody on the planet needs to be the wiser. It's not as if you witnessed a murder or an accident or something.

Whatever you do, I'd leave the PE designation out of it. It's irrelevant, and you are under no legal obligation whatsoever to disclose it. Your voice needs not to be perceived to have more clout than that of a housekeeper who might have seen the balcony and wrote the same letter to the hotel owner that you want to write.

 

[SNORGY]

You could sign:

"Yours truly,
TehMightyEngineer, PE"

That's as innocuous and subtle - and legally sufficient - as anything needs to be. My opinion is that even *that* invites too much trouble into your life that you simply don't need.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Good advice, I'll leave out any mention of professional engineer or John Doe, PE except I will mention that I am not a licensed engineer in the state where the hotel is. I'm only doing this so that nobody can claim I'm insinuating that I am licensed in the hotel's state (which is not legal, correct?).

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[zdas04]

By saying "I'm a structural engineer" and never mentioning professional anything, I think you approach maximum import. Adding the P.E. doesn't increase the import much. It also avoids the whole question of where you are licensed.

After spending some time with the New Mexico board in a class a couple of years ago my policy is that if I'm being paid for the work, I stamp it and affix P.E. to my name. If I'm not being paid I do not mention my license. My insurer supports that policy.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Sounds like a plan.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[stevenal]

It's a simple matter to add the state(s) you are registered in behind the P.E. when you want to show your credentials without violating licensure laws. Pretty common in my experience. Stevenal P.E (OR).

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

That's what I do whenever I'm emailing, communicating, or passing out business cards to anyone outside my home state.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[Sparweb]

I don't think it matters much that you're a PE. Hotel managers may or may not have respect for the profession that frequently tells them to do things in a more expensive way.

Maybe I'm bolder than some, but I wouldn't be afraid to approach the hotel manager in person with my concern, and be willing to speak and discuss it in as much detail as the person is willing to accept. If I was that concerned about the balcony, then I wouldn't have left the hotel without at least notifying the front desk clerk about it. Without being dramatic, I would try to get a person from maintenance to the room to look at it, and be there to explain my concern. What they do after that - not my problem! It sounds like you found the problem minutes after arriving. It would be hard to make a case that you caused the damage within 5 minutes of your arrival. I would have been down there right away and asked for a different room.


STF

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Without being dramatic, I would try to get a person from maintenance to the room to look at it, and be there to explain my concern. What they do after that - not my problem!

I realize we can't all take on the world every day... but I would hope someone washing their hands of the problem doesn't lead to my injury/death as the next occupant. It's easy for me to say I would do more, but I would hate to think I would do less.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Forensic74]

I wouldn't write any letter. It's too muddled of a situation/laws of notification. I would maybe approach management verbally. If you write that letter to the hotel and they do nothing, the balcony falls and kills/injures someone, and the plaintiffs attorney gets that letter, they will go after you.

"So Mr. Engineer, you knew about this problem but didn't report it to the local building department?"

The other approach would be to CALL the local building department and tell them that upon a casual observation something doesn't look right that might warrant an inspection of the balconies. They can then decide at that point if they want to restrict or further investigate.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Couldn't the reverse also happen? Someone remembers a verbal conversation and figures out it was me? Heck, someone clever enough could probably trace find this forum if it collapsed and trace it back to me.

I like your idea of contacting the local building department vs. a letter or calling the management. Plus, it will likely have more of an effect than the management, which has already been lax enough to let the balconies get to this condition and may likely do nothing.

In the end I'm more concerned about the balconies hurting someone than protecting myself (but I'd obviously like to do both at the same time).

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[CANPRO]

not sure I would go direct to the building department - I don't think there is anything wrong with that, maybe I just have too much faith in people to do the right thing. I would write something along the lines of this...

Dear Hotel,

My name is CANPRO, I recently stayed at the hotel located at <ADDRESS>. I am a Structural Engineer and am familiar with safe building practices. While staying at the previously mentioned hotel, I noticed that the exterior balconies appear to have structural deficiencies (maybe briefly describe my observations) and may be dangerous to the public. Based on my experience, I believe the balconies require immediate attention and should be closed to the public until action is taken to correct the issues. I have an ethical and legal obligation to make you aware of the situation. For my own piece of mind, I would appreciate it if you could confirm that the balconies have been properly evaluated and the necessary action has been taken.

Respectfully,

CANPRO, P.Eng


I would follow up in the next day or two if I hadn't heard back. Once they confirmed they're looking into it, I would let it go. If they don't respond or you don't feel they took the necessary steps I would write a similar letter to the building department. I'm sure there's more than one way to deal with this properly, that's just how I would go about it. Hope this works out well for you, goodluck.

 

[ImminentCollapse]

Whatever course you choose, you have to see it through now. IF, IF, IF, the balcony goes, word will spread, someone on eng-tips will recognize the picture you posted, someone will make out the phone number on the shuttle van, and so-on. All of this (thread) will be discovered. In the few litigation/forensic projects I've been involved with, the attorneys are relentless and thorough. They may not set their sights entirely on you because you will not be perceived to have the deepest pockets, but the Board might, and your license could be at stake.


IC

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Lovely username IC, works well for this topic.

I agree completely and I went into this knowing that once I started it was very easy to hit a point of no return. Plus, I am legitimately concerned here, I don't want to see someone get hurt on their vacation and regardless of my ethical obligations I want to make sure that I at least attempt to get this fixed.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[Sparweb]

TehMightyEngineer,

What did you finally decide to do? What was the response (if any)?


STF

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I've written a letter to the hotel but got side tracked with a few other things and haven't actually sent it. Can still revise it if I want to before I send it.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[CANPRO]

with all due respect TME, I think you're focusing too much on wording/delivery method when you should be getting the message to the hotel operators ASAP. Its been 2 weeks since you first posted this on E-Tips and you've indicated in the OP that this was a few weeks back...so we're talking 5-6 weeks since you observed the balcony. I think the longer you wait the more you open yourself to liability and if you wait too long they may not take your opinion as seriously. Again, goodluck with this.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

You are correct sir, I have put this off too long.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[Terratek]

How about just contacting the local code enforcement by phone or email and reporting the concern? This is not a client, so you don't need to worry about causing them heartache with whatever other trouble they may get from code enforcement. Then wash your hands of it.

To take it further, you could attach photos that illustrates your concern (not just the photo you posted here which is a meaningless photo of a building, but also a photo of the connection you described showing the actual hazard).