I have a client that wants me to design a steel column and bracket for a wind load of 150 mph. He wants to install this bracket all over the Country. Two questions 1. I am only licensed in a few States so he would only be able to use the design in the States I can seal for him. He says there is an Engineer of record on each project and they would be taking my design and approving it, more like I am providing shop drawings. Does anyone know if and how this works. Any special notes I should or can put on the drawings? 2. If I just provide drawings for the states I am registered in, How do I charge? He wants to pay me for the design only and then go and use this design as many times as he wants for as long as he wants. I think I should charge for each site, so I am getting compensated for the liability of each one installed?
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Sealing design to be used in multiple locations 1
- Thread starter deereman
- Start date
Bagman2524
Structural
His approach seems ok to me. You are only liable for the states that you seal in. The Engineer that stamps in each other state becomes responsible for the design in those states. They shouldn't be using their seal blindly. They must review and understand/approve the drawings and calculations you perform before they stamp them.
All I know is P/A and Mc/I
All I know is P/A and Mc/I
Coming from EOR side, I'm not sure why I would 'approve' something someone else designed, or if I even legally can since I have no relationship or interactions with the individual whose work I'd be sealing. To me it's not just 'shop drawings' if there's original engineering design involved in their development rather than just interpreting someone else's design. Usually in situations like this I require drawings and calculations for engineered items that I didn't design to be signed and sealed by a licensed engineer in the state the project is in. I'll then review and either comment or not comment, but I'm not sealing their work and the professional responsibility for the engineering of that component stays largely with whoever does.
Would probably also be a good idea to discuss with your PL insurer. Insurance is usually intended for designs that are used on a project or perhaps multiple projects but individually sealed. Rather than a blanket seal that could be used on numerous projects that you may or may not know about. This moves almost into the realm of manufacturing and significantly increases your/their risk exposure. It would be wise to make sure that you're still covered if that's the situation you're walking into.
Would probably also be a good idea to discuss with your PL insurer. Insurance is usually intended for designs that are used on a project or perhaps multiple projects but individually sealed. Rather than a blanket seal that could be used on numerous projects that you may or may not know about. This moves almost into the realm of manufacturing and significantly increases your/their risk exposure. It would be wise to make sure that you're still covered if that's the situation you're walking into.
I don't know about your PL insurance company, but mine doesn't want me designing things that will be used anywhere, anytime, without my knowledge.
Most states now require that you work under the direct supervision of the EOR. This does not sound like the case and you and the EOR could get into trouble.
Further, it should be you or the EOR that determines the required loading, not the client. If it is a load that works for all sites then you need to verify that. Are there other considerations like seismic, roof loads etc, that are different at the different sites? I think that you can see that multiple sites required additional work, even if it just reviewing loads required by the governing code.
Designs for multiple sites usually mean that you should be compensated for the design at each site because you are the one carrying liability for each site.
Are you insured? Or is your contract written where someone else indemnifies you?
Further, it should be you or the EOR that determines the required loading, not the client. If it is a load that works for all sites then you need to verify that. Are there other considerations like seismic, roof loads etc, that are different at the different sites? I think that you can see that multiple sites required additional work, even if it just reviewing loads required by the governing code.
Designs for multiple sites usually mean that you should be compensated for the design at each site because you are the one carrying liability for each site.
Are you insured? Or is your contract written where someone else indemnifies you?
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- Thread starter
- #7
Thanks for all the responses. I checked with my insurance company and the NC board. NC board said I need to clearly indicate on the drawings that it is a standard design and what the criteria is for the design and provide a note that states it must be adapted for the specific site and building code requirements by a PE. That is how it would be handled in NC but other States may be different. Insurance company recommends adding the note plus charging a fee for each site its used at.
This is not my business, but I'll chime in anyways !?
Normally I think you guys design a building, for a specific location. If this client wants to apply your column design to many projects, is he paying you a licence fee for each time ? Does the client have the IP ownership to do this ? At these other sites, where the client is relying on another EOR is he saying to the EOR "use this column design", then the EOR verifies that this design is suitable (more makes changes) ? If the client is saying "your design will be 'shop drawings' on these other projects", then he won't forward your analysis. There's another wrinkle, who has IP ownership of your calculations ? (surely you do, not the client) Does the client get a copy, with permission to reveal to a 3rd party ?? The EOR could review your calculations and conclude "this is an adequate design" and so reduce his time, and cost, on the project. If the EOR discusses the new project withyou, are you then working under his direction ?
another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
Normally I think you guys design a building, for a specific location. If this client wants to apply your column design to many projects, is he paying you a licence fee for each time ? Does the client have the IP ownership to do this ? At these other sites, where the client is relying on another EOR is he saying to the EOR "use this column design", then the EOR verifies that this design is suitable (more makes changes) ? If the client is saying "your design will be 'shop drawings' on these other projects", then he won't forward your analysis. There's another wrinkle, who has IP ownership of your calculations ? (surely you do, not the client) Does the client get a copy, with permission to reveal to a 3rd party ?? The EOR could review your calculations and conclude "this is an adequate design" and so reduce his time, and cost, on the project. If the EOR discusses the new project withyou, are you then working under his direction ?
another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
I think it would boil down to the use of the column/bracket. Is it a permanent part of a specific structure or an engineered product for repeated use?
There are plenty of engineered products that are used repeatedly within given guidelines. Trench boxes, equipment, concrete forms, scaffolding, lifting devices, etc. Most do not require a fee or stamped analysis for each use.
There are plenty of engineered products that are used repeatedly within given guidelines. Trench boxes, equipment, concrete forms, scaffolding, lifting devices, etc. Most do not require a fee or stamped analysis for each use.
charliealphabravo
Structural
When I was first starting out in the late 90s I encountered a grainy 8.5x11 copy of a signed and sealed in-ground swimming pool design. It was "on-file" in jurisdictions all over Central Florida and was being used to pull swimming pool permits for hundreds of homes by several builders. The engineer had been dead for years.
It appears you are designing a product for a manufacturer. Can you provide adequate data sheets and supporting specifications to provide any and all data needed to incorporate your product into another work?
Not too different from a proprietary anchor bolt or hanger assembly.
The challenge comes in determining if a certification process would be needed for acceptance and if the design can truly be adequate in any conditions or properly qualified with enough capacity ratings that it can be used as noted.
Not too different from a proprietary anchor bolt or hanger assembly.
The challenge comes in determining if a certification process would be needed for acceptance and if the design can truly be adequate in any conditions or properly qualified with enough capacity ratings that it can be used as noted.
Everything I release is for one location and the address is clearly labeled on the plans. If the client wants to use it in another location for an identical condition, I copy the plan, change the address, stamp it and he gets the a plan. This assures that I have a chance to review everything and be sure it is in fact an identical condition. For the billing I charge half of the original project since I'm not doing much work, but I am assuming more liability with each time is is constructed.
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