Sealing designs produced in India? 10

[ironmon]

Hey all,
I find myself stuck in a moral and ethical dilemma.
For the next 6 months my company sub'ed me out to a large corporation, where I am to review and seal designs created in India.
I guess this is the new normal in the push to Globalization.
I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.
Also contacted the state professional society, they were only able so far to give their personal opinion.

Of course there is this gray area about stamping other designs.
Some say no, never, others are ok with it assuming you review it fully.
But this feels even bad to me, like I am a pawn in a corporate shell game.

I sit here now on the fence, juggling my own responsibilities, my own conscience and whether I should just go along to get along.
Or refuse to do this work, and see what happens.

What say you?

 

[XR250]

This is what NSPE says...

http://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/take-action/position-statements/responsible-charge

Does not sound like you meet their criteria which is great because we need to keep these jobs local.

I work for an Architect who actually opened an office in India. Lots of mistakes on their drawings because they are really slack on their review process.

 

[jayrod12]

India based architects or not, lately I've been noticing a significant drop-off in the quality of architectural drawing review and the coordination of other trades drawings. Everyone seems to be fine with countless revision sheets, addenda, and COs.

 

[Teguci]

Put yourself in a courtroom with a prosecutor asking you to show responsible charge on project X.
- These calculations and drawings that you are stamping, are you able to do that design on your own or is there information that you are not familiar with? You will need to present that to a jury.
- Make sure you can show that you have provided actionable comments that are responded to. I would think this especially important during the first several projects or so. Keep copies of those bloodied up drawings and calcs.
- For projects that take longer than 1 week, I suggest having several phases to the review and completion.
- Collect copies of everyone's resume for your file. Make it a point to call and talk to the people doing the work at least a couple times. Document the conversations on a log (I don't care what time zone they are in, talking on the phone is irreplaceable and they work for you).
- Make sure they work for you and not some company. You receive the project. You deliver the project to the workforce with notes. You receive updates on the drawings and calcs. You are kept abreast of client input. You are completely satisfied with the work when it is completed.

If an engineer presented this to me in a courtroom, I'd be more than satisfied that they exercised responsible charge.

 

[MotorCity]

As long as you are the design professional in responsible charge and are working within your realm of expertise, where the design occurs is irrelevant. You are ultimately responsible regardless of where it was designed. That being said, the design should conform to the code where the project is located, not the India code. This process is becoming more common with companies opening shop overseas, and there is nothing wrong with it as long as the criteria above are met. Some clients specifically prohibit their projects being designed outside of the US. If that's the case, it does become unethical for you to do so.

 

[JAE]

All good comments above. I would add that the process of "review" of some other design is much more involved than simply scanning over the drawings.

Teguci, above, outlined some very good items.
I would suggest that, as the EOR, your "review" would look very much like what you would do if you originally design the structure.
The difference is that you didn't have to perform the following:
1. Invent the framing layout, details, and connections from scratch - that process has been completed.
2. Prepare the drawings, notes and specifications.
3. Coordinate with other disciplines such that the structural work is consistent with the others.

HOWEVER!!!
For the items above you should also:
1. Completely analyze the framing independently to verify sizes of all members (not just a few but all).
2. Verify connection capacities and configurations.
3. Ensure the drawings are complete and consistent with the code and with other disciplines.
4. Correct errors or problems in the design and ensure that the revisions are integrated into the set.

So in essence, your review should or could almost take as much time as an original design.
The company you work for is probably assuming that they can save tons of cash by using the foreign engineers and your time would be minimal.

I think your time on the project would be much more involved than they are presuming.

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[ironmon]

Thanks JAE
I posted this in the ethics forum, check that out for more updates.

 

[GeoPaveTraffic]

I would add to the above good points, remember that you are PERSONALLY responsible for all designs that you seal. You own and are responsible for your license, not your company. They may defend you in court and pay the insurance, but you could loose your license and your livelihood.

The fact that you are asking the question, makes me thing you are not very comfortable with the situation.

Good luck.

Mike Lambert

 

[dhengr]

Ironmon:
You should actually not be very comfortable with your current employer, if they would put you in this position. It shows that they have no understanding of, and little regard for, the obligations and responsibilities of a P.E. and the use of their seal and signature. They may insure and defend you, and/or they may not defend you when the chips are down. In fact they might try to fire you to avoid the difficulties, or at least learn quickly that they can claim you are responsible for your own actions as regards the use of your stamp, and you’re on your own. Their current actions seem to indicate they might stoop to this level. You better get this all ironed out before you agree to this arrangement. In any case, that’s your licence, your livelihood, your obligation to act responsibly, ethically, and to protect the health, safety and well being of the public. This arrangement is probably not impossible to do, but you must have considerable control over how it is done, who’s doing the work under your supervision, the ability to check and reject plans, details, specs., work in general, when it does not meet code and normal engineering standards. Responsible charge, under your direct supervision, does not mean you have to hold every worker’s hand while they work on your projects, but you are ultimately responsible for the entire work package, so you better be comfortable with all of their abilities.

 

[msquared48]

This is also being discussed in the Professional Ethics forum.



Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[MrHershey]

Everybody's different, but for me there's the difference between:
I get a (hopefully complete) design from random Indian guys and gals that I am supposed to review and stamp. I have little to no contact with the actual individuals who did the work. I'm essentially being paid for my stamp.

And:
I'm in the US but working closely with a bunch of designers in India who are doing a lot of the work under my direction. I have close, direct contact with everyone doing anything that my stamp is going on. Or at the very least, close and direct contact with a technical supervisor who I trust. I talk with them almost daily, checking in on work, providing guidance, and answering questions. Ideally this gets to the point where some of these people could theoretically get licensed themselves if they've got the credentials for it.

The first one is a giant no thanks from me. Company can find some other sucker to do it for them and take the fall when something inevitably goes south because I missed something during my reviews. If they say that's how it's going to be or I can take a hike, then bye.

 

[ironmon]

So it appears that I've overcome the first hurdle in this situation.
That being that I'm not going to affix my PE seal to this work.

After a quiet day back at my home office friday, my super told me that he discussed this with the owner, and he is okay with it.
Not gonna get fired, there is other work to do......cool

However........ I failed to really make clear where I'm at on this.
Cause, the expectation shifted to now reviewing the design for him to seal.

Oy Vey! the says to myself..........what now Batman

So since i put most of the time friday on overhead, (nothing to do) I gets a text friday evening about my time card.

Deep sigh.....muster up courage......my help is on the way.

So, I call the super to explain.....and tell him that I want nothing to do with this project, zero, I don't even want to discuss it in any capacity.

awkward moment of silence........"ok"........ hurdle cleared

Monday awaits.

 

[delagina]

This is the "norm" with big EPC companies (Fluor, Bechtel, Jacobs, etc..). They all have offices in India where they send 50% (less or more) work. I have checked a lot calculations done in India. Honestly, I like their work better than calculations done by engineers here.

"However........ I failed to really make clear where I'm at on this.
Cause, the expectation shifted to now reviewing the design for him to seal.

Oy Vey! the says to myself..........what now Batman.

So, I call the super to explain.....and tell him that I want nothing to do with this project, zero, I don't even want to discuss it in any capacity."

Since you are also not comfortable checking calculations done in India for you Lead Engineer to sign, and you are a contractor on overhead, expect to be laid off soon.

 

[RobertHale]

Honestly, I like their work better than calculations done by engineers here.

I have to ask what makes their calculations better?

I also think if you extend the premise you set up for ironmon's employment is brought to its logical economic conclusion, he(she) is really just middle management fat waiting to be trimmed anyway.

 

[spats]

Has anybody concerned about the fact that these jacklegs are stealing our jobs? Why would any true-blooded American even think about helping them out. This is one of the major reasons that ironmon has nothing to do and is being farmed out.

 

[delagina]

@spats, we are talking multi-billion dollar projects, EPC companies in the US compete with EPC in Japan, Korea, Europe, etc.. If half of the work is done in India, they can lower the bid price.

Also most of projects/plants are located overseas, in middle east, etc.. so having a PE license in the US is not required most of the time.

Using your logic, US engineers shouldn't be awarded projects located overseas. The engineers in the country where the plant is located should get that project. We (US) are stealing their jobs.

 

[SAIL3]

delagina...you are off the mark here....the OP's situation involved projects that required a PE registered in the US...

 

[delagina]

I was responding to spats stealing our job comment.

In OP's case the plant/project is located in the US so it requires US PE to stamp the drawings. Probably the LNG plant in Lousiana.

Regardless, 50% (more or less) will still be sent to India to lower the bid or else another EPC will win the the project.

OP already said he's not ok stamping which I can understand but I don't know why he still not ok just checking the calculations.

 

[spats]

Sorry delagina, my comment was not about multi-billion dollar projects. That's not the way I took the OPs situation. Have you ever heard of Indian engineering companies setting up an office in the United States to a broker design back to India, then back to the US office to be signed and sealed by their "engineer"? Just an example. These jacklegs steal our jobs by working cheap in a sweat shop in India.

 

[GregLocock]

And so dies the free market dream. If some dude with a drafting shop in India can produce a design as good as yours for 1/3 the price, then why would you hamper your customers by insisting they pay more for your design? Maybe you should learn how to compete rather than relying on red tape?

My charge rate is ten times what the sweat shops charge, and I'm busy.







Cheers

Greg Locock


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