Sealing designs produced in India? 10

[ironmon]

Hey all,
I find myself stuck in a moral and ethical dilemma.
For the next 6 months my company sub'ed me out to a large corporation, where I am to review and seal designs created in India.
I guess this is the new normal in the push to Globalization.
I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.
Also contacted the state professional society, they were only able so far to give their personal opinion.

Of course there is this gray area about stamping other designs.
Some say no, never, others are ok with it assuming you review it fully.
But this feels even bad to me, like I am a pawn in a corporate shell game.

I sit here now on the fence, juggling my own responsibilities, my own conscience and whether I should just go along to get along.
Or refuse to do this work, and see what happens.

What say you?

 

[rapt]

Greg,

Therein lies the problem . It will cost at least the amount of the savings to show that the design "is as good as yours" as you basically have to do a full design to check it thoroughly. This cost has to be added on and it is not in many cases.

 

[GregLocock]

Is that decision not up to the "large corporation"? If they think it is cost effective but it isn't then they will be less profitable. If they persist in that route then they will go away ultimately.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[rapt]

Yes, in an ideal world where everyone is playing by the written and moral rules, not evading them (sound familiar with the current state of a lot of business in the world).

So, No, the problem is that someone will be found to sign off on the design without doing the full check and incurring the costs of it. The cost is then shifted to the unknowing groups who end up owning the final product, if and when there are problems.

 

[OldBldgGuy]

A couple of late comments here:

In Ontario, as I presume it is in most North American jurisdictions, it doesn't matter who did the work, if you're going to stamp the drawings you're responsible for it. Many times you haven't done the original work, but if you're stamping it you've always checked it. What's the difference where your junior's desk is? It's your neck.

And I'm with Greg Locock: I charge what I want & I turn down work at least 2 or 3 times a week. Do a good job & you won't be able to do everything that comes your way; if the guys in India or wherever aren't doing the stuff we don't want, who is?

 

[havesealwilltravel]

I would like to address the original question of P.E. stamping engineering drawings where the designs and the drawings are produced in another country.

The main reason an engineer should never do this is that most likely this is illegal and therefore, also unethical. All the states I know of require that, in order to be able to professionally seal engineering drawings, the engineer must have directly supervised the preparation of the drawings.

To Quote from Ohio’s Code:
“The engineer or surveyor shall not sign and/or seal professional work for which he or she does not have personal professional knowledge and direct supervisory control and responsibility.”

If the drawings were prepared in another country, an engineer receiving a finished drawing obviously does not have “direct supervisory control and responsibility.”

The customer went to a foreign source for the engineering because they were cheaper. The customer is coming to you NOT to review the drawings and calculations and NOT to make changes. He merely wants you to stamp the drawings and take financial responsibility for any errors or omissions. The customer is coming to you because you are the cheapest (or easiest) way he can get the drawings P.E. stamped. If you insist on too many changes to the drawings, the customer will find another engineer who is more liberal with his seal. To keep the customer, you must shut up and stamp.

Everyone in the engineering business knows a “hired gun”. This term means someone who will stamp any drawing after giving it at best a cursory review. Stamping drawings prepared by people who are not under your supervision at the time of the drawings creation is unethical and degrading to the engineering profession.

 

[Angre]

ironmon,

havesealwilltravel's last sentence sums it up "Stamping drawings prepared by people who are not under your supervision at the time of the drawings creation is unethical and degrading to the engineering profession.".
As per comment made by rapt, you can sort of "act dumb" and keep on commenting on aspects that you feel are wrong, until the unnamed corporation realise their mistake.

I have on rare occasions, come across some excellent good design offices in India, in general they shared some characteristics, in that they were small(10-15 employees), with a generous sprinkling of experienced people( >15 years experience).
The seniors ones had worked outside with American&Western firms and having made their pot of gold had come back to India.

One of the things which has shockingly gone unnoticed in the West is that in last 20 years there has been a very aggressive and intense affirmative actions carried out based on caste preferences.Some of the states have a quota of 80-90% of reserved seats.This has brought down the quality of even the non-quota engineers down, as academic standards had to be watered down so that decent pass percentages could be achieveded.So the quality of newbies(7-8 years exp) is abysmally low even at elite IIT's.Reserved quota at IIT's itself is around 50%. I have come across engineers who could not calculate the weight of a steel plate given the length,breadth, thickness and steel density.You should bring this fact to notice, if you think that can help.

Having said the above, I suggest that you have an online interview with the design team in India to assess their capabilities, as there are some very good engineers in India, knowledgeable and with good communications skill.If you feel that review process is not rigorous, ask them to send in chk-prnts.
By the way I have come across some awful designs from USA too.I think the lesson is that if you want to outsource whether in or out of country, you should be doing thorough check on your team.