Sealing designs produced in India 13

[ironmon]

Hey all,
I find myself stuck in a moral and ethical dilemma.
For the next 6 months my company sub'ed me out to a large corporation, where I am to review and seal designs created in India.
I guess this is the new normal in the push to Globalization.
I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.
Also contacted the state professional society, they were only able so far to give their personal opinion.

Of course there is this gray area about stamping other designs.
Some say no, never, others are ok with it assuming you review it fully.
But this feels even bad to me, like I am a pawn in a corporate shell game.

I sit here now on the fence, juggling my own responsibilities, my own conscience and whether I should just go along to get along.
Or refuse to do this work, and see what happens.

What say you?

 

[Twinkie]

I grew up in a Union household ... this entire thing stinks to me.

Is this what we have become? Signing and sealing drawings produced for dirt cheap in foreign countries while our own economy falters?

"Engineers shall build their professional reputation on the merit of their services and shall not compete unfairly with others."

Does this ring a bell to anyone? Does the owner of this project know that it is being engineered overseas or does he think the work is an American product?

 

[stevenal]

http://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics

See II(1)f

 

[IRstuff]

Seems to me that there are a bunch of unrelated questions
> Are the drawings and calculations done to the same level of quality you would expect from someone who was under your "responsible charge?" If no, then they should be corrected, if yes, then they are acceptable from an engineering perspective and are fundamentally no different than if they had been produced here.

> Are the engineers in violation of "the law?" Not obvious, since we don't know what their local laws require.

> "Engineers shall build their professional reputation on the merit of their services and shall not compete unfairly with others." And? If this were paramount, then subbing it even to non-licensed engineers within your "responsible charge" would be unfair, since it's probable that you don't pay those engineers then same as you're being paid, and most likely, your contract rates doesn't necessarily reflect that either. And what if their quality were no worse than your competitors, how would that be "unfair?"

> Based on the above, if the OP were stationed in India and met the "responsible charge" criteria, how would that be unethical? There's nothing stopping "others" from doing the same.

TTFN
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[Twinkie]

Now that Canon is in place to keep licensed professional engineers, in the United States, working.

 

[tstructural]

IRstuff -

Of course EITs perform engineering work. That is how all of us learned how to do our jobs. But, they ask questions along the way, we give guidance, we review their calculations (not 100% of each multiplication or addition) but spot check especially when we see results that don't make sense. And I have never charged my rate for the work an EIT does. That to me sounds unethical.

In my opinion - 'Responsible Charge' does not mean one review at the end and if it looks good I stamp it. Responsible Charge means I've collaborated before (setting design criteria) and during (answering questions, redirecting if the design engineer is going off track, giving advice on local construction practices, etc) the entire design process.

I'm not an attorney but just reviewing at the end of the project and stamping it appears to NOT meet our professional standards.

As far as competition - Competition is being faster (thereby costing less), better (perfect designs/construction documents and even the 'constructability' of our designs) and staying on schedule. What this company is doing is disgusting and very possibly illegal. It only hurts our profession and if I were the OP I would seriously consider making a complaint to the board of engineers.

 

[ironmon]

Twinkie
The Owner and Designer are both multinational corporations with Global HQ's in Europe.
I did look up some news articles on the project, and just getting more jaded, the same ole story millions in tax breaks, promises for thousands for local jobs, etc.

 

[ironmon]

Just makes me wonder why doesn't this big corporation us hire some PE's to oversee....even remotely, and get them to stamp the projects.
As apposed to sub-ing it out to a little mom and pop Engineering Company?

I only been here 3 months....

 

[jayrod12]

Because it's easier to bully the small mom and pop company to do what they want. Most small engineering companies are battling to make real profits, a partnership with a big company seems attractive from an income perspective, but you could end up losing in the long run.

 

[Twinkie]

...and it seems the "new guy" at the small firm is being bullied into doing something he doesn't believe in as well.

This pisses me off that the PA State Board will give you no guidance. It doesn't surprise me, but still...what are they here for?

 

[Ron]

As SLTA and I both know, we don't always pick good clients, even when we have the decision to do so! Our motivations are usually somewhat different than those of a corporate structure. As small company owners, we try to select clients for continuity (repeat business) and referrals, financial stability (theirs and ours!), and of course, how interesting the project is. In a corporate structure it is usually the potential fee/profit that the project might yield over all else.

 

[ironmon]

So it appears that I've overcome the first hurdle in this situation.
That being that I'm not going to affix my PE seal to this work.

After a quiet day back at my home office friday, my super told me that he discussed this with the owner, and he is okay with it.
Not gonna get fired, there is other work to do......cool

However........ I failed to really make clear where I'm at on this.
Cause, the expectation shifted to now reviewing the design for him to seal.

Oy Vey! the says to myself..........what now Batman

So since i put most of the time friday on overhead, (nothing to do) I gets a text friday evening about my time card.

Deep sigh.....muster up courage......my help is on the way.

So, I call the super to explain.....and tell him that I want nothing to do with this project, zero, I don't even want to discuss it in any capacity.

awkward moment of silence........"ok"........ hurdle cleared

Monday awaits.

 

[BrianPetersen]

Hope your resume is up to date!

 

[GregLocock]

I wonder how different the responses to this thread would have been if the title had been 'Sealing designs produced in California'?




Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[BrianPetersen]

If I didn't at least have a hand in preparing the document then I'm not stamping it. I don't care if the document came from the office next door or from some other continent.

 

[ironmon]

re: GregLocork

1. I do not want to stamp other people's work, regardless to country of origin.
2. I do not want to participate, and facilitate the outsourcing of my profession to countries with vastly different labor rates.
3. I love the creative side of Engineering, and I don't want to number crunch other people's data for 6 months.

 

[IRstuff]

re. 1, why not? As a senior PE, at some point in time, it'll be your responsibility to train EITs, which means that you'll have to delegate such tasks to younger and less experienced engineers. If this is not something you're not willing to do, then you need to reconsider your career and the company you work for, as I would expect that they would have similar expectations.

re. 3, similar comments. It's selfish to want only the fun stuff, but not help others appreciate the fun stuff by neither checking their work nor allowing them to do some of the fun stuff themselves. If that's really what you want, so be it, but you might want to consider going solo.

TTFN
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[TehMightyEngineer]

Re #1: I'm assuming he means stamping other peoples work he has no ability to work with or provide mentoring/oversight/suggestions to.

For example, I do the structural engineering for two precast plants. The other day one of the estimators at the other plant worked up a buoyancy calculation for a series of manhole structures and sent it to me to be stamped. I reviewed the calculations, changed a few numbers to more accurately reflect the self-weights, and stamped it with no problem. I had no problem because it was someone who I had control over and understood their capabilities, and was able to review and work with them to get it to a point I was comfortable with it.

Now if this was another company, even one next door, I wouldn't have stamped it even if it was 100% correct. I have no knowledge of their abilities, no ability to work with them effectively to make changes, and no way to claim the work was done "under" me.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[ironmon]

Yes, I'm talking about other peoples completed work.
Of course I would stamp any and all work done under my supervision.

And for #3, was just one of the many thoughts, that whirled around in my head, not my primary motivation.
Sometimes you got to soldier though the "not fun" work, but you also got to be true to what you really want to do, to be.
So, there is this balance between someone's tool and being an artist.

 

[Twinkie]

#3 is called "forensic engineering" .... we all know how hard it is to figure out that design that was done by the guy who left the company 6 years ago, and now is coming to fruition. I couldn't imagine having to do this with work coming from other countries.

 

[IRstuff]

The difference is that you potentially know what the exact design requirements are, which is not often the case in "forensic" engineering. Moreover, there's still the possibility of asking the engineer who did the work. It's much harder to come across a design where the specific requirements aren't currently known, and there's no finding the original engineer to ask questions.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //

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