Sealing designs produced in India 13

[ironmon]

Hey all,
I find myself stuck in a moral and ethical dilemma.
For the next 6 months my company sub'ed me out to a large corporation, where I am to review and seal designs created in India.
I guess this is the new normal in the push to Globalization.
I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.
Also contacted the state professional society, they were only able so far to give their personal opinion.

Of course there is this gray area about stamping other designs.
Some say no, never, others are ok with it assuming you review it fully.
But this feels even bad to me, like I am a pawn in a corporate shell game.

I sit here now on the fence, juggling my own responsibilities, my own conscience and whether I should just go along to get along.
Or refuse to do this work, and see what happens.

What say you?

 

[EngineeringEric]

My understanding is that you are to only seal work completed by others under your direct supervision as a Licensed Engineer. I think some states in the US state things similar and i found on a quick internet search Canada states:

APEGBC professionals must meet the requirement of direct supervision when they
delegate activities involving the practice of professional engineering or professional
geoscience to a subordinate. This QM Guideline is intended to assist APEGBC
professionals in establishing and maintaining a documented process for the delegation
of professional engineering and professional geoscience work to a subordinate working
under direct supervision, that meets the intent of the Act, including:
• basic and general guidance on direct supervision;
• active involvement;
• adequate supervision of fi eld reviews;
• responsibility for professional engineering or professional geoscience decisions; and
• appropriate consideration of experience levels when delegating professional tasks.

https://www.apeg.bc.ca/APEGBC/media... Management/APEGBC-QMG-Direct-Supervision.pdf

 

[Twinkie]

You were not in responsible charge of this design. You could not seal these in any of my states.

 

[stevenal]

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter37/s37.59.html

 

[ironmon]

Thanks for the PA link.
I am in PA.
I clearly do not meet the definition of "responsible charge"
and it seems a step outside "the spirit of the law" as well.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.

That would make me seriously question the use of having a state board...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[ironmon]

Both the State Board and NSPE just direct me to their web site, and are just willing to repeat the statements there.
And NOT render an opinion.

It seems I must discern this for myself.
Having been laid off twice recently, at the ripe age of 50, I'm not afraid of losing this job.
So, I told superiors that I won't do it.
Not comfortable with the arrangement or the shell game.

So we'll see.

The path to freedom, is not found through adhering to the membership requirements of the collective you find yourself in.
Only membership is.
Freedom is already here....

 

[xnuke]

The state board and NSPE will not provide legal advice. That's why they just repeat what is written on their sites. Trying to get them to interpret something is the same as trying to get the IRS to interpret the tax code - they won't do it because they won't assume legal liability.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[JedClampett]

I admire you for taking a stand.
But they might decide that if you're so all fired to take reponsible charge, "...we'll send you to India for two weeks every six weeks, direct the engineers and see how you like it."
They're probably still money ahead.

 

[marty007]

I don't envy your being forced to make this stand. It sounds like you've done the right thing.

Keep us posted, I'm curious to see how your employer responds.

 

[hokie66]

Good for you, ironmon. Just curious, what type structures are they designing in India for construction in the US? I know there is a lot of drafting outsourced there, but design is a different story, unless there is supervision on site in India by the destination country.

 

[msquared48]

Tell your boss to send you to India for six months so you can directly oversee the work. That would not be a professional or ethical conflict.

No, he could not reduce your wage for working as an engineer in India...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[RocketRed]

I'm sure there are situations/designs where this could work, and plenty where it doesn't.

Are you a supervisory engineer with direct access to your design team in India?
Are you redlining and returning drawings for revision and then approving? This seems like having an active part in the design process to me.

I provide oversight from afar all the time (like a few states not countries), and feel perfectly comfortable with the design process. I think if you have ample understanding of the project/process and some form of a relationship with the designers under your seal then you are approaching a proper design method. I also think you could review documents and provide a sealed review letter. Stamping the docs would mean you had something to do with their creation, and if you didn't then stamping them is way off the charts.

A little more data about what is going on would help the forum.

Good luck with your bosses.

 

[Ron]

Way to go ironman! Exactly the right thing to do.

I'm disappointed in your state board. Go past the admin person to their General Counsel. The Board should be able to interpret its own laws and rules.

Like RocketRed, I've done a lot of remote review within my company; however, that's a bit different situation. In those cases, all design decisions are mine.

 

[ironmon]

The Company that I was "loaned" to, is the US engineering office for a very large petro-chemical company.
They just had a big layoff.
I understand that 80% of the design work out of this office is from overseas.
They affix their US HQ location on the drawings giving the illusion that they are the originator.
I do not have direct access to the team in India.
I was given complete design drawings, calculations (all are computer calcs) and STAAD models., to review and stamp.

The project is for "one of the other" world's largest petro-chemical companies.

I'm back in my home office, I understand that my supervisor is going to stamp them, and ask for me to assist in the engineering review.

Just stinks to the high heavens.
I just want to go home and drink.

signed
Lamenting in PA

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Not suggesting you should at all, but you could complain to your engineering board if your boss stamps them and you feel it was unethical.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[JedClampett]

Ironman, aside from the ethical issues, how are the end designs? Are they of a level (quality, detail, constructability, etc.) that you would expect if you were supervising a group locally?

 

[ironmon]

The designs are good, and appear to be well thought out.
All the shapes are Chinese standard, so was hard to get a "feel" for the robust-ness of it.
All of the main assemblies are being built in China and shipped over in barges, which was another one of the load cases to consider.

I realize that I have some social conditioning to overcome, having worked for US Steel Mills.

But it ain't gonna happen today.

 

[SLTA]

This silliness is part of why I have my own company - only I decide who to work for. I will say that Ron had it right - my state board has a lawyer on staff who is more than happy to give advice on how to stay out of trouble. I've called him a couple times when I was asked to do something that made me think twice, and was glad I did! (best part - it's FREE.)

and ironmon, keep a good watch on that process, and keep your feet clean. Best of luck.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[IRstuff]

Seems to me that the whole concept of "responsible charge" is an antiquated notion derived from medieval and recent apprenticeship practices. After all, does that mean you literally hover over the engineer doing the math and drawings every minute as master might have done for a new apprentice? Even if you had that engineer in the office doing the work for you, isn't it more typical that they do the work and present you the final product for review, correction, and stamping? Otherwise, how could a single PE have "responsible charge" over a cohort of subordinate engineers?



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