Sealing of design by other specialized professional for proprietary... 4

[VYordan]

If one were to check all the computations and drawings pertaining to a structure -non building- which is a very specialized one and that the analysis and design is rather proprietary, how would one go about the sealing of the drawings as the engineer of record?

The designer and manufacturer is not locally based, but in Europe and they do not have a local license.

The drawings have been reviewed, questions and suggestions taken care of. Same as for computations. The designer and fabricator produces highly specialized and proprietary product, sold and installed all around the world.

So, if the above steps -checking, etc.- have been followed I do not see anything out of bound about sealing these as per the engineering code of ethics.

However, the other matter remaining is, would one seal the drawings maintaining the manufacturers and designers logos and seals in the drawings and computations besides one own.

I mean, that manufacturer must still have some responsability liability if something goes wrong beyond the local engineer's
control...

Thank you all.

 

[RHTPE]

I will be interested to see the responses to this.

I routinely review & seal drawing done by a vendor that I used to work for. My premise is that I completely "own" the design, and the drawing(s) are issued by me back to the vendor. They do NOT get issued unless they meet my standards. The vendor's title block remains, I add a note under my seal that explains the extent of my review and specifically what it is that my review covers.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I tend to agree w/ RHTPE. A note indicating that this engineer has completely reviewed said design and takes responsibility or something along those lines.

You might/should give your lawyer a call.

 

[B16A2]

This would be like being the EOR for a project that included a PEMB building, but without having a PE design the PEMB. You're on the hook if anything goes wrong with that building because you're the only licensed individual reviewing its design.

Do you even know who the "designer" is? I mean, what individual in the company is taking responsibility and overseeing the design for this highly specialized building?

 

[VYordan]

It is a world renowned designer and provider of wind turbines.

 

[dcarr82775]

I think B16A2's example is right on. I wouldn't have any problem leaving on their titleblock. Can you get yourself covered under their insurance?

 

[dhengr]

VV:

I’d do my own drawings where that was needed, and my own calcs. where those were needed, with ample refs. to their drawings, calcs. or product info. where that was needed to tie your work together. Then I’d write a letter/report saying that I reviewed their drawings and calcs. (be specific about what you reviewed, drawings S1-S38, and calcs. 1-28 & 37-62, and keep in your job file) for compliance with local codes and conditions, or I designed the intermediate part, such and such. I would not sign or stamp their drawings or design calcs. Your agreement with them should spell the relationship out, they want a local engineer to help with local conditions, right? Most big, reputable, companies are not trying make you cover their product design, but they can say that in their agreement with you; the trouble is the courts and some turkey trying to strike-it-rich can take advantage of this if it is not spelled out. And, I’d still run this by my lawyer and insurance carrier.

 

[JStephen]

VYordan- you need to check your state engineering laws. Some states have specific provisions for this kind of thing, some have specific prohibitions against it, some are just kind of murky on the subject.

 

[JStephen]

And also check carefully to see if the item is exempt in the first place- as per "industrial exemptions" or utility exemptions in many states.

 

[Ron]

If you have satisfied yourself as to the engineering aspects of the design, and you are willing to take on that liability/responsibility, then nothing wrong with signing/sealing. Do as Ralph and Mike noted...at notation, keep their logo and title block.

I don't know what your contract states, but I would hope you have complete indemnity from them for the design, production and installation of the product. If you do not, then get it.

 

[JAE]

VYordan - Could you post back to us here why the proprietary drawings need to be sealed? Is it because you think you have to? Or is it because the local authorities are requiring it? Or is it because you think the local authorities will require it? I'm curious as to the set up here.

In most states (agree with others about checking on local laws) the seal of an engineer only does one thing: It states that you were the engineer that had direct responsible charge in the creation of that design.

It is a statement, not a certification. It informs WHO did it (and who is responsible for it) and does not, by itself, warrant the design as 100% correct.

So I would agree with dhengr above in their comments.

If this is a case where an outside authority is requiring a licensed engineer to seal the work, and the vendor cannot do so, then your options would be:

1. Talk to the authority and inform them that this product is imported and the vendor has no local licensed engineer - that it is not a building per se but a proprietary product that could be certified/warranted to meet certain standards, and that since this is a highly complex, proprietary product, you would be limited in what you personally could seal. Perhaps with this they might allow you to construct without a seal. Might.

2. Do the review per dhengr's comments above and write a letter outlining your review, its scope and limitations....especially the limitations.

I would generally not seal their drawings unless you are willing to "own" the design completely per B16A2's comment above.

 

[B16A2]

I dont think Vyordan (or 99% of us) is qualified to check these highly specialized and proprietary drawings. It's like me giving a set of structural drawings to my licensed hydraulics friend to review. Yea, he could maybe pick out a few things, but in reality he has no clue what to look for. If there's EVER an issue, it will go back to the licensed professional. Vyordan's only defense is that he didn't know what he was looking for, and that will get him in big trouble. The fact that the designer is overseas makes it even harder to gain their responsibility.

Writing a letter as suggested above only self incriminates. It says, yes I looked at some of these drawings and I really wasn't qualified to do so. The only way around this is for the Turbine designer to provide signed and sealed calculations by a qualified professional. Surely if they're world renowned, they have a few bucks to have a licensed engineer in the localities they plan on doing work.

 

[hokie66]

I concur with dhengr and JAE. Signing and sealing the vendor's drawings should be avoided.

 

[JAE]

B16A2 - I think you hit on a particulary important aspect of this - in most US state engineering acts, the engineer is required to only provide engineering services in the areas in which they are qualified. So we are left to self-police ourselves and know our limits.

This would require VYordan to look at this "specialized" design and determine if they even have the knowledge and experience to review/seal/sign/own.

 

[RHTPE]

I agree that signing and sealing drawings outside of one's area of expertise should not be done.

In my particular case, the drawings that I review are completely within my area of expertise. Further, I am quite familiar with the skill sets of those doing the initial drawing. Before these drawings are signed & sealed, they are thoroughly scrutinized and brought up to my standard of quality, both for design and for manner of presentation. I am quite prepared to consider them my work product - I just didn't do (or directly oversee) the initial drafting.

Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[connectegr]

We often seal drawings or calculations, with an additional note excluding manufactured products and design provided by others. A simple example is a wall rail; we design the rail, but exclude the Wagner brackets, which are a catalog item. In your case the company providing the proprietary product, should have the full responsibility for the performance of their product. If you openly seal their design calculations or drawings, you are accepting this responsibility. Your head will be first on the block, if a problem occurs. You can counter-sue the proprietary company, but this cost money and takes time. And you have the additional issues related to foriegn firms In these cases I look at two things. First, will my E&O policy cover this. They do not simply cover everything you put a seal on. Second, is my fee representative of the increased liability.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[dhengr]

My earlier comments were predicated on VY practicing within his qualifications and field of registration, most State’s registration laws cover this, and I suspect most others thought the same thing. There really wasn’t anything about the OP to suggest otherwise, except that he might have been a bit naive about what he should or shouldn’t sign or stamp. He didn’t say he was going to redesign or reinvent the generator, the gear box or tower. That is probably way outside something he should assume any responsibility for. We await VY’s explanation of the extent of his involvement. Engineer of Record (EOR) may have been a bad choice of phrase on his part, or at least he might rethink that after reading this thread. Maybe the local authorities put these words in his mouth. And, he should not let some local official put him in that position.

There are plenty of people who come to these forums pretending to be engineers, who couldn’t engineer their way out of a paper bag which was open on both ends. They should be honest about their qualifications, educational background and experience level and should not be pretending to be doing serious engineering if not fully qualified. But, I also have no qualms about people extending or improving their qualifications through good honest experience and education either. This is probably not the kind of project on which to do your learning, without a more experience mentor in your corner.

Then, in the current code, regulatory and legal environments we also have local authorities, be they building officials or zoning officials or the like, pushing this kinda bulk signing and stamping, thinking that everything should be stamped by an engineer, in good part to cover the local authorities own butts, and so they have someone with deep pockets to blame if things go south. They are using us a insurers of last resort. Some of them have way too much authority and too little of the knowledge. They don’t have the vaguest idea who to assign to oversee a project like this, is it the same inspector who checks the wiring or that there is a footing under a 3" pipe post in a house. I expect soon, that they will be asking us to sign off on the dishwasher installation instructions, while these are manufactured items covered by those who sell them. And, in that respect several of JAE’s comments are applicable; the local building offices should be educated, nicely of course, have it explained to him, that we don’t warrant that kind of stuff, the manuf’er. does. My guess is that a wind farm or even a single wind turbine hasn’t been sold in a vacuum, and that the County or Governing Authority has already signed off on this, through zoning approvals and the like, or should have. Maybe VY should be working for the wind turbine company, as their local consultant, and for the most part working under their umbrella, after all, they sold the job and their product.

 

[RockEngineer]

In Washington State where I live, the Engineering Board has issued several statements that there is no provision in Washington's law for reviewing and stamping something that was not prepared under the engineers direct supervision. They recommend preparing a report which includes your calculations and stamping the report. I have often included manufacturer's data and drawings as attachments to my report which is acceptable because I prepared the report.

As stated before, you need to check the laws in the area where you live or are working. Some states do have provisions for reviewing and stamping but they can be very specific.

 

[RHTPE]

RockEngineer I like that approach, particularly in those states where the reg's are somewhat silent on the matter.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[DWHA]

If I were in this sitution, after I am satisfied with the calcs and the drawings I would add a cover sheet to their package and seal the coversheet. On the coversheet state the title and location of the proposed project. Also, would try to get yourself covered on their insurance if possible.