Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

Register Log in

Self Driving Uber Fatality - Thread IV 7

Status
Not open for further replies.
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Sort by date Sort by votes
dgallup said:
If a car with driver can make economic sense and you can add the autonomous features for less than 50% extra then the autonomous car must be able to make a good business case.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Just need to make the autonomous work. The BIG problem though is societal. Autonomous vehicles will INCREASE vehicle movements and we already have a problem in most major cities of congestion. Congestion is self limiting due to the human cost of time, with autonomous vehicles the situation gets dire. Restrictions or road use charging is almost inevitable in many cities even without autonomous vehicles. If they start hitting the streets governments will have to regulate/charge their usage of public roads.

IRstuff said:
$0.55/mi is roughly the GSA reimbursement rate for personal vehicles.
Click to expand...
And your are double counting by using this figure and the capital cost of the car. You'll find that capitcal cost is the majority of this figure.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You'll find that capitcal cost is the majority of this figure.
Click to expand...

I won't quibble that possibility. So, drop the $50k, it's barely breakeven, which isn't enough to pay for the rest of Uber, not even counting the amortization of its development costs.

OTOH, I think a fully automated vehicle fleet will alleviate a lot of congestion; no more looky-loos because automated cars don't care, no more slowing down in turns and going up grades because they stay on their cruise control, no sudden and random braking and slowdowns because they'll stay on their cruise control, no accordion effects because they'll all stay at a uniform separation, etc.

What's more critical to alleviating congestion is ridesharing; if people are more willing to partake in Uber-like ridesharing, that could substantially reduce the number of cars on road. And, since the automated cars don't mind idling and waiting or being the last stop, that could make vanpooling more practical.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IRstuff said:
No, the reality is that it is nearly impossible to be 100% attentive 100% of the time; our attention wanders, we get tired, or we get distracted, even with just random objects within our field of vision. This is the promise of vision/AI systems; they maintain the same level of attentiveness and detection accuracy/efficacy whether it's one minute into the drive or 8 hrs into the drive. The big question is can we ever achieve the required detection accuracy without globs of false alarms? If the answer is no, then any sort of aiding might indeed be worse than none at all, since it lulls us into a false sense of security, making it that much harder to react/respond if something goes awry.
Click to expand...

I think I agree with you here. I've made a what I think is a similar statement previously, that expecting a human driver to remain even somewhat attentive when the person is not doing any of the driving tasks, is unrealistic. The only people who do that are driving instructors. They get paid well, and only do it for short periods of time. Imagine being a passenger on a road trip and having to be ready to grab the wheel any second in case the driver suddenly becomes unconscious. How tedious would that be? Much worse than just driving yourself, right?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, once the computer is doing the steering, it better be able to handle any situation it will encounter. Otherwise, it's a disaster in the making.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
At minimum autonomous vehicles should greatly alleviate parking problems. I don't know how much of inner city driving is just going round and round the block looking for a place to bark but I'll bet it's a significant amount. They should also cut down exhaust emissions as the number of cold starts should be greatly reduced.

I agree that app developers are probably not qualified to develop safety critical software.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
once the computer is doing the steering, it better be able to handle any situation it will encounter. Otherwise, it's a disaster in the making.
Click to expand...

That's the SAE Level 4 or 5 system, which we are a long way from achieving.

Certainly, one thing that could at least help is if companies like Tesla state clearly and upfront, what is SAE level of their vehicle. Obviously, some fudging is likely, but Tesla would have to be insane to claim anything beyond Level 2, out of 5.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
...one thing that could at least help is if companies like Tesla state clearly and upfront, what is SAE level of their vehicle.
Click to expand...

I don't think it would make a difference for most people. Regardless of what you call it or what level of automation the manufacturer deems it to be, most people won't care. If the car can drive itself, those that are so inclined, will let it drive, and will not pay attention. The only thing that I can see improving the situation is a warning when the computer figures out it's in over its head and needs the human to take over. I can't see that being too successful either, between the aforementioned false alarms and the demonstrated lack of ability of the systems to anticipate problems, either the alarms would be going off all the time, or would come too late to matter.

Those of us that don't trust the system will never buy a car that has it, and we certainly won't pay extra for a feature we won't use. I won't even buy one that has the parking assist feature, because the control freak in me doesn't like the idea of my car even having the ability move the steering wheel. I can parallel park and back a trailer (and parallel park with a trailer if I need to) just fine on my own.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I'm surprised you allow the car to run the spark plugs without the using your own ECU ;-)

But, seriously, ECUs are way more automated than a carburetor/distributor, so we've accepted a rather huge amount of "automation" to get the gas consumption/power/efficiencies that the ECU provides.

I think it's just going to be a matter of time; when you're the lone standout on a freeway, messing up the traffic, it'll be really obvious. I can imagine a scenario where you'll either get a ticket for not using the AI or be prevented from driving on the road.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Driving as a human requires decent focus of attention. As driver assist features get added the amount of focus needed initially decreases: eg Automatic emergency braking systems can help prevent crashes during lapses of attention, but don't constantly kick in and so aren't something the driver gets used to. But systems that regularly activate and work under "normal" circumstances but require the driver to stay alert for failures? Those are a recipe for disaster. They train humans to not pay attention, then require instant attention when they fail. Humans are SLOW to switch attention.

IMO Levels 0 and 1 are safe, with 1 being safer than 0. Level 2, 3 & 4 are deadly. Level 5 will be fine, since it doesn't depend on the human as a backup. Humans make terrible backup systems.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Level 4 does not require a human backup. The difference between it and level 5 is the number of driving modes covered, but in all cases, the system is supposed to deal with the situation although level 4 will request the driver to intervene, but will come up with a safe exit even if the human fails to intervene.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IRstuff, the ECU doesn't drive the car; it only controls the internal workings of the engine. It doesn't control the throttle or the steering wheel. I don't have a problem with driver assistance features, such as cruise control or even autonomous emergency braking, but I draw the line at the car actively steering itself. I think I'll keep that under my control.

Eufalconimorph said:
Humans make terrible backup systems.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The ECU very likely does control the throttle based on a suggestion from a pot or magnetic pickup at the accelerator pedal and/or the simultaneous application of the brake.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
3DDave said:
The ECU very likely does control the throttle based on a suggestion from a pot or magnetic pickup at the accelerator pedal and/or the simultaneous application of the brake.
Click to expand...

Not on any of my vehicles. All of mine have a mechanical linkage to the butterfly valve in the throttle body. Of course, the newest vehicle I have is a 2009, so some newer vehicles may be set up that way. Hybrid vehicles I think are set up that way by necessity.

Granted, cruise control, and especially adaptive cruise control, do control the accelerator, and make adjustments to the throttle. However, with cruise control in operation on vehicles numbering well over a hundred million, I haven't heard of any cases where one engaged on its own or would not disengage. Even if that were to occur, it would be much easier to mitigate than a vehicle suddenly deciding it needs to make a hard left turn.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
That's a scary story, IRstuff. It reinforces my aversion to vehicles where the ECU controls the throttle.

LionelHutz, last I knew only the European cars had ABS systems that used the wheel speed sensors that reduce the brake pressure to unlock the brakes if the suddenly wheels stop turning, indicating a slide. The 'ABS' on American cars last I knew consisted of merely pulsing the brakes when a skid is indicated. The Mercedes M Class also used the wheel speed sensors for the 4WD system to apply the brakes to a wheel that was slipping, in order to force the power to the other wheels, but it's the only one I know that has implemented the system in that way. I don't know if Daimler/Chrysler has implemented that system on any of the American vehicles; I can see them using the technology on Jeeps, maybe.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
3DDave said:
The ECU very likely does control the throttle based on a suggestion from a pot or magnetic pickup at the accelerator pedal
Click to expand...
Indeed, my 2003 Silverado has a servo operated throttle.

Brad Waybright

It's all okay as long as it's okay.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The VW Golf R (or GTI?) has a similar type of differential where it applies the brakes to get power to the other side. Seen one suffer what I believe was brake fade from this at autocross and drive clean into a pole.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well, mark the Silverado and the Golf off of my Christmas list. Darn, I was thinking of maybe getting a Golf at some point, although it was the TDI that I was interested in, so I might have to look closer at which models have what controls.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
My rather old C6 has stability control, traction control, ABS, drive by wire throttle, active shocks and probably a few more systems I've forgotten. It will very definitely activate a single inside wheel brake to assist the car turning in if it detects an under steer condition. It will decrease throttle and brake individual wheels if it detects over steer or excessive wheel spin. These are not new capabilities, they might have been novel in 2005 but they are everywhere today along with a host of additional capabilities. A BMW quality engineer was showing me the active cruise control. You can set it to 80 mph on the highway and when you come up on some slower traffic it will reduce speed to match. You may forget it's engaged and enter a reduced speed zone of say 40 mpg. As soon as the traffic ahead clears it will go right back to 80 mph.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Yeah, 2 of my vehicles have traction control - I always turn it off anytime it's slippery and it might engage, and so does my wife.

One of ours has the adaptive cruise control as an optional cruise control setting. I never use that either.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

IRstuff
  • Locked
  • Question
Self-Driving Cars and Taxis Are Here! 5
2
Replies
31
Views
40
Luceid
Luceid
drawoh
  • Locked
  • Question
Self Driving Uber Fatality - Thread V
Replies
11
Views
12
drawoh
drawoh
JohnRBaker
  • Locked
  • News
USS Bonhomme Richard fire, reopened thread...
2
Replies
24
Views
25
cranky108
cranky108
thebard3
  • Locked
  • Question
thread815-457402 Dive boat fire h 2
Replies
1
Views
8
drwebb
drwebb
drawoh
  • Locked
  • Question
Self Driving Uber Fatality - Thread III 4
5 6 7
Replies
121
Views
122
Spartan5
Spartan5
Back
Top