Should Engineers have access to CAD 1

[Ussuri]

We have an ongoing discussion in my office whether Engineers should have access to AutoCAD. There are two schools of thought.

No: As Engineers we should provide sketches to a draftsperson/technician and they should develop the drawing. The Engineer should then mark up checkprints, so never has any need to a drawing package. Working with CAD is not part of the Engineers Job

Yes: As Engineers we do drawing as part of the design process, visualisation, checking geometry, conceptualising etc. A person can do more accurate sketches with CAD, and a lot quicker as well. The sketch can then be taken an worked up into a full drawing. The art /skill of the draftsperson is taking the bones and scribbles from an Engineer and turning it in to a professional document.

I personally fall into the Yes category but I would be interested to hear other members opinions.

 

[ctopher]

With SolidWorks it will be down to 7 hrs per day, with just as much work to do.

Chris
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[mrMikee]

ctopher,

Looks good to me, I can even have an extra long lunch.

I wonder though, if anyone over fifty can even learn solid modeling?

Thanks,
-Mike

 

[ctopher]

Yes, I have seen all ages learn it. Depending on teacher and how much you want to learn.

Chris
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[MechElement]

JStephen,

We get a project from an engineer, sit down and come up with a design. Then that design is put into a drawing by the designer and submitted to the engineer. The engineer will critique it and submit it back for updates. The "Designer" has a mind-set for design and usually will come up with a good idea and compose a drawing in an efficient amount of time.

 

[Ussuri]

IMHO, the definitions I come across are:

Draftsmen=Tracer: Copies verbatim an Engineers sketch into AutoCAD, errors and all.

Technician=Designer: Develops the general arrangement, details, scheme, etc and produces a proposal drawing for the Engineer to review, usually educated to college (HND, HNC) level but occasionally university educated. Completes basic calculations for the Engineer to check.

Engineer: Puts numbers to the Technician arrangement, modifies in line with engineering principles and codes if required. Takes responsibility for the design. Usually degree educated, but not always, and professionally qualified (P.E, CEng)

But there are always exceptions to any rule.

 

[Beggar]

In several places I've worked, having a dedicated drafter has been an unaffordable luxury. If you have an engineer, they can typically CAD-draw well enough to get by. A drafter, though, simply cannot do the engineering.

The funny thing that I've found is that in the couple of times when I've worked with a drafter who's supposedly the "AutoCAD guru," I've understood the finer points of its use much better than have they.

I think it's because I'm a "software guy." Whatever the software it is that I use, I always spend time figuring out what all the menu buttons do. It's a tool -- it seems foolish not to use it to its best advantage.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[ctopher]

It is very rare to find an engineer that is capable of doing good drawings per drafting standards. I know a lot of sm to med companies that do not care, fllow or know about drafting standards ... so it's not important to them and not a requirement for engineers.
AutoCad has been around a long time and started as a cheap CAD software and easily copied. Everyone copied from friends, loaded it at work, and most sm to med companies started using it. It then became part of their designs and habits. A lot of these conmpanies created their own way of using ACAD and do not send new employees to ACAD training, therefore do not use industry standards. For mechanical engineering, CAD is not usually required unless it's aerospace or automotive related...which is mostly 3D solids.
I beleive in companies using drafters or designers to do the detailed dirty work using solid modeling, then the engineer taking that data and doing their analysists and approving the design.
Having engineers create the work, send it to the drafter or designer, or doing the dwgs him/herself creates more work and errors multiply.
sorry, my 2 cents.
Chris

Chris
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[cadnutcase]

Time for my 2 cents -
Of course you would have junior and senior guys at each one of these categories.

Drafter -
Guy/Gal who can fire up AutoCAD get in there, do red to black, maybe rough out some very preliminary overall dimensions. He will also follow drafting standards, fonts, lineweights, that kind of stuff. Most may know what they are drawing, but don't really have a clue of why they are drawing it that way or how it fits into the overall philosphy of the project. Unfortunately too many people fall into this category even though they don't know it.

Designer -
Guy/Gal who can take napkin sketches, water cooler talk, general meeting notes and turn it into a project. He can develope and track down 90% of the information he needs. He can take educated guesses at what the engineer would have sized something based on past experiences. He know whats the customer needs, not what the customer wants. He takes into consideration mainatance areas, safety issues,etc. general overall project criteria that may or may not be in the project specifications. He doesn't need an engineer to calculate pipe spans, roof slopes, or a beam size to hold up that one piece of grating out there. He can do this because he has a chart from one of his previous employers that tells him what guidines to follow.
Good senior designers can spec out equipment in a pinch, usually go to project kick off meetings and can usually offer sound overall project advice. This guy is the one who worries about all the details. A good senior desinger stands next to the engineer at some companies.

Engineer -
Guy/Gal The person who can tell exactly if that building is going to blow over in the 140 mph. If that pipe is going to blow because it over pressurized or if the foundation will fail because of the weight put on it. This is the guy who is supposed to look at the big picture and ask himself whatif? Sure he can get into CAD and fiddle around, some can do absolute wonders in today's can systems and follow all proper procedures. He has programs and formulas for making sure that bridge is going to hold or that battle ship won't sink, and more importantly can prove it and will have to on many occasions. He is responsible for all of the drafting/designs/engineering on his project when the stuff hits the fan.

Now if any of you are still reading this you will find that 90% of people in a engineering department fall into one of these categories.
I would say 5% would probably overlap into two of the categories.
The other 5% well they are just there for there good looks or they are good BS's.

I think I could start a whole new thread about titles, because I have seen many times each of the misused.

I am getting off my soap box now and going get some beer. Company happy hour tonight.

Cadnutcase.

 

[mrMikee]

This continues to be an interesting discussion that has crossed a fairly wide spectrum relating to the use of CAD by engineers, designers, and drafting people. While I do have by own view on this topic (due to many years of just being around this) I have to say in all fairness that I have seen examples of many of the situations described above. There are too many clueless people around and they keep showing up everywhere. I really do try to minimize the times that I am one of them however.

But it occurred to me after reading through our discussion which started out with the question about CAD and engineers, that if we in the profession have somewhat differing views, what chance does management have of understanding what CAD, engineering, and technology is all about. It seems to me that fewer companies are being run by people with technical backgrounds and more are being managed by well, just about anyone. It's no wonder our working environments are so different and the success of many companies is probably due to the efforts of all the technical people (engineers, designers, and drafting people) to get it all to work.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[ctopher]

I agree. IMO, it is one of the major reasons a lot of work is outsourced. Managers and marketing don't understand technical work, so they give it to someone else. (Different discussion)

Chris
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[MechElement]

cadnutcase, your descriptions are very accurate. I have yet to work with a "drafter" as you have defined them. Perhaps there are folks who do not understand what they're drawing, but I have not had the opportunity to meet one. I would hope the draftsman understands what he's drawing.

ctopher, I agree 100% with what you've said. We are currently dealing with this now. The new Director of Engineering will not allow any of my design team to design anything at all. Instead, the engineers are doing their sketches and the drawings MUST represent EXACTLY what they want done. Even if there's a chance of a better idea, we are not to question or challenge the engineers' designs. Projects are taking MUCH longer than anticipated. Redlining drawings has increased exponentially.

 

[cadnutcase]

Mech,

Down here in Houston they is a huge shortage of GOOD CAD people whether they be drafters/designers/engineers right now. You have to kind of take what you can get.

The infamous problem here is there are so many CAD schools in the city and the industry is such a wide range that you get a lot of people who know how to use CAD but don't junk about what you are doing.

Mech question about your last post, what do you do if the engineer's design doesn't work? Say there is no hole for that bolt, do you have to get approval before putting a hole in. I would think you would put the hole and when giving him the drawings back, you tell him that you had to put a hole in. Just curious.

Back on topic to the original post though.

I think the ideal situation at least in my field. Would be this.

You have a good designer assinged to an engineer or maybe two who handle the projects, Then there is a pool of drafters to handle doing the drawings, pick up marks that kind of stuff. I am the design manager at my company and this procedure seems to work really well. Of course designers who aren't assigned a lead to a particular project at that time are helping out the others.

There is no reason for our engineers to get into CAD at anytime, they just feel better having it.
I say give the engineer CAD, after he proves he really knows how to use it though.

 

[JStephen]

I thought I posted a response, but don't see it...hmmm.

Ussuri, from your response, I assume you are not in the US. In which case, the educational system is apparently different, and the qualifications of the people you're dealing with are somewhat different.

I see now that the original post cannot be answered in a general sense because the terms used don't have meanings specific enough to help. To answer the original question, you'd just about have to work for that company.

MechElement, you make an interesting statement. It sounds like your company has no provision whatever for training people- they have to be experienced in your specialty before you hire them? If so, it may work for you, but by definition cannot work for everyone- new hires have to start somewhere.

I may say also in response to the original question, that at one position I supervised draftsmen (of varying abilities) but had no access to CAD. Unfortunately, the employer (non-engineer) didn't see fit that I should learn CAD. Now, I have been using it for several years, and am still learning. If your engineers don't have adequate understanding and knowledge to deal with CAD, or are not familiar with your particular drafting standards, etc, have you perhaps considered that this is a problem that should be corrected, rather than assuming the engineers shouldn't have access to it?

Specifically, Cadnut, your idea to give CAD to engineers "after he proves he really knows how to use it" means "never"- because much of what you learn about using CAD comes from experience, not from a classroom. I have dealt with two draftsmen who were fresh out of drafting school, and by your standard, they would have never had access to CAD either.

 

[MechElement]

cadnutcase, I am the principal designer and I'm in charge of the designing/drafting department. Every designer uses CAD and creates the drawings as per standard.

Yes, we actually have to ask the engineer if it's acceptable to put a hole in the part. Otherwise the hole position will be changed ever-so-slightly. My Sr. CAD Designer chose the placement of a lateral support yesterday and today engineer moved it 1/4" away from the 1" offset my designer chose. The engineer said to just do it. I couldn't believe it, but we HAD to adjust all views. This has been ongoing for a month now. I'm really trying to keep up the morale here. It's extremely hard to get a good designer in this region.

On topic... When I was informed by the DOE each engineer wanted AutoCAD, I spoke with each one personally to better understand the level of AutoCAD experience each engineer had. As a conclusion, I proposed AutoCAD LT for the engineers to save some money. This idea was unacceptable because they would have a "lesser CAD" than the "drafters".

 

[cadnutcase]

Jstephen,

One of the things I did for the guys who had a little or more cad experience, is I held a training class for how my company does CAD. We covered everything in a couple of hours. Basically they were instructed and agreed that the last person who touched a drawing had to put their initials on it. Also anything that would take them over 10 minutes to do, they would come to me.

The key item also was they were allowed to copy items in a drawing around, but not allowed to modify the blocks or create new ones. This helps on the whole cad standards.

The guys with no experience, we basically are going to do a 8 hour crash course over a period of long lunches.

Cadnutcase

 

[JStephen]

"As a conclusion, I proposed AutoCAD LT for the engineers to save some money."

When I first started using AutoCAD, the previous user at my company had just left, taking his version with him. So we needed to buy AutoCAD. The catch was, I was new enough at it, I had a hard time trying to figure exactly what the difference was, and whether we needed the full version or the Lite version- and wound up buying the full version. It may be that way with your guys- they don't really know what's missing, so can't really say if they need it or not. Or you get a list of features that are in one but not the other, but you don't know what those features mean, so you don't know if you'll need them at some point.

I have found a few applications where I used the 3-D stuff, but 99.9% of ours is 2D drafting that lite would do fine on. Some oddball stuff has come up too- the full AutoCAD let you insert raster images, the LT didn't have that particular option (probably some other way to accomplish it, though).

 

[MechElement]

JStephen, I was told to review a bunch of resumes and pick the appropriate candidate for a designer position. I submitted my pick. The gentleman is in-processing now. When I spoke with the DOE about the gentleman I chose, he told me the guy might know too much and I should hire someone like a secretary so I'd "be able to keep an edge over them." This guy's a P.E. telling me things like this on a daily basis. IMO, that statement goes against everything I was ever taught about leadership.

I fully explained the difference between AutoCAD LT and the full version. It didn't matter. I suggested teaching a CAD class to the enigneers, but the DOE allowed only 15 minutes a day and it should only take a few days.

When I was in college learning mechanical design, I QUICKLY advanced beyond the professors CAD capabilities. Towards the end I was showing the professor commands in AutoCAD, Mechanical Desktop and Inventor. I would LOVE to get someone right out of college over here. He/she would be willing to work and learn.

 

[cadnutcase]

MechElement

At one time I tought alot of AutoCAD classes at night. I would routinely get students in my night class who had taken the beginner course during the day class. They would always complain about the day time teachers. The president of the school would always ask me why his daytime teachers would get such bad reviews from the students on exactly what you were talking about. Towards the end of the class the students would end up teaching the teachers.

The only conclusion I could come up with was that any half way decent CAD instructor could probably make 50% salary working out in the real world doing real work then he could teaching.

I will probably get flamed for that statement, so let me exclude people who just love to teach out of it.

I have also been told to hire lesser qualified people, but it was mainly because the bean counters working looking at their salaryies. I had to come up with a formula to justify it.

lesser salary * slower work + more of my time = lesser production

more salary * faster better work + less of my time = more production.

It didn't work.


cadnutcase

 

[MikeHalloran]

I've worked at a lot of outfits that use AutoCAD. None of them use it 'right', i.e. like "Inside AutoCAD" taught me, or like Autodesk apparently intended. Kids fresh out of school are just not prepared for what they'll be expected to generate, or repair.

I just wish someone would teach them how to draw in pencil.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ctopher]

I spent aprox 2.5 years training drafters/designers/machinists/techs how to use CAD and wrote standards. Out of all, everyone learned something and improve their skills with dwgs, file mngmt and design ... except the engineers. They just saw it as another meeting to take up time.

Chris
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