Should Engineers have access to CAD 1

[Ussuri]

We have an ongoing discussion in my office whether Engineers should have access to AutoCAD. There are two schools of thought.

No: As Engineers we should provide sketches to a draftsperson/technician and they should develop the drawing. The Engineer should then mark up checkprints, so never has any need to a drawing package. Working with CAD is not part of the Engineers Job

Yes: As Engineers we do drawing as part of the design process, visualisation, checking geometry, conceptualising etc. A person can do more accurate sketches with CAD, and a lot quicker as well. The sketch can then be taken an worked up into a full drawing. The art /skill of the draftsperson is taking the bones and scribbles from an Engineer and turning it in to a professional document.

I personally fall into the Yes category but I would be interested to hear other members opinions.

 

[mrMikee]

As an aside to this topic I've noticed an overall degradation of skills in the last to fifteen ten years at the companies I worked at and with the CAD drawings we have received from vendors. These are all with small companies which I think is part of the problem. Small companies don't often have a broad experience level that is helpful with running an efficient engineering/manufacturing operation. In my opinion it takes a balanced systems approach to sales, engineering, design, bills of materials, product structure, document management, and so on, in order to be a successful and profitable business. And it takes the right people to do this. We all need to be part of the system.

It seems to me that the problem solving process often is to take a screwed up mess and put it all on a computer, in which case the result many times is a computerized screwed up mess. If the logic isn't there to do things manually then the computer is seldom a fix by itself, and this is really important with bills of materials, configuration management, and CAD.

But I see now that I have wondered too far off topic. Someday, maybe another thread.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[PeterCharles]

Ah, so draughtsmen (and women) still exist!

Where I work they have all been renamed "Design Engineers", are loosely refered to by "management" as "Engineers", but in most cases have a calculating ability that runs out after the basic trig functions!

Such is life....

 

[Zapster]

Should Engineers have access to CAD? Yes

Should half of the people that call themselves designers or design-engineers have access to CAD? No, I don’t even know what they are hired for. Takes longer to tell them what you want than it takes to do it yourself.

There is a world of difference between a CAD jockey and a designer besides the salary that they get paid. In the consulting engineer firms I worked at, I did not find many qualified designers. I did note that there were a few designers/drafters that went back to school and became licensed engineers. These were usually the most qualified designer/drafters. The problem with designers that have the depth of knowledge to make a good design is that they typically choose to move on to a lead role instead of a support role. This may be quite different in manufacturing where everyone is given an engineer’s title.

 

[MechElement]

If you search online at jobs for engineers. If there's a requirement to know how to use a CAD program very well, the salary is almost always better.

Zapster, I agree with you regarding electrical. Electrical schematics, single line diagrams and panel board schedules have to be the easiest and most boring drawings I've ever had to do. I am currently working with 2 electrical engineers who don't know how to use AutoCAD enough to create these drawings.

 

[ctopher]

Can an engineer put together a quality drawing package, per standards, and make it understandable for a michinists AND inspector AND Q.A. to read? Most of the time ... no. Designers and drafters are hired for that job. If a company has only engineers doing this work AND can meet these criteria, stars for them. It is rare.
What is the difference between a CAD jockey and a designer?? A drafter, designer, engineer or anyone else can be a CAD jockey.
I asked several mech. engineers from a few different small companies (during a seminar in a room) if their drawings and documentation are configuration controlled. They didn't know what I was talking about. I asked them if they design in 3D, they said yes. I asked them what software, they said AutoCAD (not Inventor or Mech Desktop, etc) just ACAD. SO, it's not 3D, it's 2D. I got blank stares.
I think it's a good idea for engineers to use CAD, if they would be trained correctly on how to create dwgs and how to use effectively. Too many engineers see CAD as just another tool to play on and get them thru the day.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
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[SeanSweeney]

This is fun. I am English and brought up in the Draftperson and Engineer culture as you first 'NO' point describes. Works fine because Engineers cant do CAD. So NO

But

I moved to Norway 4 years ago and they do it different. There are no draftspersons only Engineers and everybody can do CAD. Sounds odd because you'd think so much time would be wasted on drafting but saves a whole world of time not sketching and trying to communicate solutions to others without drawings. And the bonus is that you rely on youself - took me 2 years to get the hang of CAD but works wonderfully and the whole system is flexible. And the people who are educated as technicians are basicly engineers but used to a lesser degree as enginners and more to drafting.

Just wish they'd all speak English (they can but prefer their own language)

 

[Ussuri]

Just wish they'd all speak English (they can but prefer their own language)

I guess we can't hold that against them

They do have a totally different way of working than the UK. Its a lot more effective as well. I just think they do the whole work-life balance so much better than we do.

 

[Zapster]

ctopher (Mechanical)
28 Jan 06 20:09
I spent aprox 2.5 years training drafters/designers/machinists/techs how to use CAD and wrote standards. Out of all, everyone learned something and improve their skills with dwgs, file mngmt and design ... except the engineers.

ctopher, you seem to harbor some ill feelings towards the engineering porfession. Keep in mind the text under the logo at the top left hand corner of you monitor, “INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS.”

 

[ctopher]

No ill feelings towards the eng prof at all. I was an engineer once. Just stating as I see it from my experience.
Not trashing anyone or any profession.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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[JStephen]

"Can an engineer put together a quality drawing package, per standards, and make it understandable for a michinists AND inspector AND Q.A. to read?"

I'd say that depends on the situation. In your case, evidently not. That hardly makes it a blanket rule. Yes, I can put together a quality drawing package that our welders and QU people can read.

"Most of the time ... no. Designers and drafters are hired for that job." In fact, in the situations I've been in, the drafters (there weren't any "designers") knew less about what a quality drawing package ought to be than the engineers. And hiring new drafters meant a sharp learning curve for our particular industry.

"If a company has only engineers doing this work AND can meet these criteria, stars for them. It is rare." Once again, I think this depends on the company. No, I'm sure I can't whup up a set of drawings that meets YOUR standards. But yes, I can meet MY companies standards (and go far beyond them, for that matter).

"I asked several mech. engineers from a few different small companies (during a seminar in a room) if their drawings and documentation are configuration controlled.
They didn't know what I was talking about." Well, I don't know what you're talking about, either. But I am fairly certain that NONE of the draftsmen I've ever worked with has a clue what that is, either. Perhaps....perhaps it is not a useful concept in a small company?

"I asked them if they design in 3D, they said yes. I asked them what software, they said AutoCAD (not Inventor or Mech Desktop, etc) just ACAD. SO, it's not 3D, it's 2D. I got blank stares."
Not sure what you're getting at here. Yes, AutoCAD does have 3-D capabilities. I don't normally use 3D, I HAVE done a few things in it, can't say how useful it is overall, but you seem to assume that nothing in 3D can be done at all without Inventor or Mech Desktop, which is not the case. Perhaps that explains the blanks stares.

 

[ctopher]

JStephan, Don't know why you are lashing out at me. Like I said, it has been my experience, not everyone's. Also, it is NOT my standards, I'm talking about general drafting/drawing standards. If you knew what they were, you would know what I was talking about.
Also, most ACAD users either don't use the 3D capabilities or don't know they exist. They use strictly 2D. How many ACAD users out there use 3D with just the AutoCAD package? They don't, unless they purchased Inventor or some solid modeling pkg.
Why do you have such ill feelings towards drafters and designers? I never questioned if YOU could create a quality dwg package. I was talking in general and from my experience. I started as a drafter, learned some machining, became a designer, then an engineer, now CAD admin. I've been there/done that.
So, from MY experience ... my responses above were my thought on why engineers should or should not use CAD ... not to trash anyone here. Sorry, but if you take my opinions too seriously, there's other forums for that.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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[MechElement]

JStephen, actually AutoCAD does not have true 3D capabilities; ctopher is correct.

 

[IFRs]

I use 3D quite a bit actually. Mostly mechanical assemblies - to see if it fits, to help me design the thing, etc. Also some things are just plain eaiser to visualize in 3D. CAD is nothing more than a means to an end. Communication with sales, regulatory body, customer, fabricator or erector. Sometines 3D communicates better, then I use it. Sometimes 3D makes the design go faster, then I use it. CAD is a great tool, like MathCAD, VB or Excel. I'm not a world expert nor to I use global standards. My drawings tell a story, the layer names mean something to the casual user (Roof, Clip, etc) and the use of colors helps visually isolate or highlight sections that need attention and the linetype signifies center, hidden, boundary, etc. Don't take my CAD away!! I hate getting drawings from other companies that are all drawn in model space, not 1:1, with no polylines and with exploded dimensions. It just does not help me do my job. I get this crap from engineers, drafstpeople, managers, supervisors, etc. No group is better or worse in my experience. Learn to use the tools, make everyone else's job easier and stop fighting about ownership or rigid adherance to obscure standards.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Bare AutoCAD has two, mostly disjoint, classes of 3D capability, surfaces and solids. I have used both, extensively, in 3D.

Neither is going to win any ease of use awards, and both have limitations that should embarrass Autodesk, but I'd call them true 3D, as much as I'd call any CAD tool using a planar display, true 3D.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[mrMikee]

Autocad can do 3D wire frames, surfaces, and solid modeling but has limited tools for these functions. I know someone that has been using Autocad to create models for analysis in Nastran. Autocad is not parametric like Solidworks or ProE however.

-Mike

 

[JStephen]

ctopher, don't believe I lashed out at you at all- re-read the post. Nor do I have ill will towards drafters and designers- I think if you'll re-read, you'll notice that I have not actually worked with a designer, at least by that title. And as stated, those are my experiences. I realize yours are different.

 

[ctopher]

thanks


Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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[tinfoil]

Yes engineers should use any toold which makes their job easier and/or more accurate. Whether the work is 'finished', or 'cleaned up' by a drafting expert is another story.

BTW, This question was asked on a forum intended for use by engineers, on a subforum specifically dealing with CAD. Don't you think that there may be a BIT of bias in the responses, as you will not likely have a representative sample reading this!

 

[Ralph2]

As a "non-engineer" I would say that knowledge of CAD is a desirable skill to anyone who "used" to make hand drawn sketches. But the use of CAD has led to the decline in drafting standards and likely the draftperson trade is destined to the same fate as cartwrights...eventually

My 2 cents.. Ralph

 

[ctopher]

I agree. This is partly why a lot of this work is outsourced, and a lot of the quality in dwgs have gone away.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716