SKILLS SHORTAGE IN ENGINEERING? 15

[chris9]

A leading UK politician recently stated in a national newspaper that industry and academia needed to encourage more women into the engineering profession to address the skills shortage.

If indeed there were a skills shortage for engineering posts in the UK then encouraging women into the profession would address the issue. However, about 15 years ago stood many impressive buildings around the UK teaming with engineers. Now they have been demolished and replaced with retail outlets. The ones that are still standing are selling off land and down sizing.

The engineering industry in the UK is shrinking, engineering companies that have been trading for over a hundred years are closing down. British engineering companies are being sold to large multinational companies who often only wish to get their hands on the brand name before discarding the manufacturing base.

Markets are driven by supply and demand. Demand for engineers is so low that pay is very poor in comparison to most other professions.

Just where do politicians get the idea from that there is a shortage of engineers?

 

[GregLocock]

Here in Australia more like half that, on staff, although in Detroit there are some technical specialists on about that sort of money.

epoisses, Australian definitions of an expert:

1) Anyone from overseas

2) Any consultant

3) Ex as in has-been, spurt as in drip under pressure.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[makeup]

I have experience of the Oil & Gas Industry and can vouch for that kind of money in the UK for some people, but not all. Like DrillerNic says, you get to go to some really s**T places and spend the best part of the year away from home. An easy lifestyle for some but not for all. Kids and families dont just grow on leave dates and you miss a hell of a lot in the name of money. Its 12h/a day 7 days a week or longer. But even in this industry it aint what it used to be. Some people are going offshore for less than 10 years ago and their is a lot of talk about using migrant workers here to do some of the mundane stuff and drive down costs. I think that a good approximation in the UK for Engineering is £27K - £35K. Their are exceptions but not many.

 

[chris9]

If consultant surgeons worked 12hr days seven days a week and spent most of their time abroad on contracts I guess they would earn a hell of a lot more than £80k!

 

[DrillerNic]

Chris9 & makeup- the salary I quoted is probably OK for a lead drilling, completion, petroleum or reservoir engineer (ie on the upstream side). I was a pipeline engineer for a few years and downstream the salaries were a good deal lower (and the work rota much worse- I resigned and moved upstream when I was offered 8 & 1 in Saudi...). So as I said, I think salary depends upon which engineering branch and industry you work in. Now I enjoy nothing more onerous than 5 & 3, and I've always managed to find something nice about the country I'm in (even if it's the fact that it's not Nigeria!).

The Drilling Superintendent on my current project is contract on about £620 a day and the Drilling Supervisor is also contract on about £580/day. I know one contract drilling enigineer who's on a grand a day, but that's the exception, and it is a residential position in western Siberia......

The average age in the upstream business is about 49 and there's a real crunch coming: too many redundancies every time the oil price drops below $15/bbl, graduates not wanting to enter what is seen as a politically incorrect, 'old economy' industry that's apparently only got a few more years to go before the oil runs out, so I guess rates can only go up, over the next 10-15 years.

 

[makeup]

I think you're right to a point. There are lots of people like me who have grown up in O&G and learned to accept change. We have learned to take on board new things, fire fighting and getting the job done with what you have. But it is the industry that has turned its back on us. I have been trying for 2 years to get back into O&G, I have done a BENG hons to improve my technical knowledge no luck so I have had to change and move on. Its not that people dont want to join, O&G wont let you join. Look at the next job advert 10 years experience, where do you get experience if no-one gives you a go, chicken and egg. Its your own making not the lack of people prepared to give it a go.

 

[ScottyUK]

makeup,

You are correct to a large degree. O&G is almost a closed club, even those of us who work in utility-level power engineering, and on a plant fuelled by natural gas at that.

Even though myself and many colleagues have directly transferrable skills from similar hazardous industries, it is not easy to get the first O&G position.

I would happily enter the field, and to hell with the tree-huggers and anyone else who thinks I'm joining a "what is seen as a politically incorrect, 'old economy' industry that's apparently only got a few more years to go".



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[DrillerNic]

Often the trick is to get past Human Resources and reach a technical manager. Human Resources have a check list for a job that will be pretty prescriptive and often lack the knowledge that "Process engineering" is similar to "Chemical engineering" and so on, so any transferrable skills aren't always noted. If you can get to a technical person then they'll know that running a gas fired power station is broadly similar to running a production platform, and consider you as a night supervisor or whatever. That's where O&G becomes a closed club- knowing who to call. And this extends to the company to call: many of the oil companies don't employ the guys offshore, but subcontract it all to Petrofac or PGS etc none of whom are really household names! And most of the advertising is done locally: why pay for an advert in the Telegraph on Thursday, when advertising in Friday's Press & Journal (next to the ploughing competition results!) is cheaper and reaches a larger target audience?

However, I certainly had problems getting in, and a stack of rejection letters (I don't really hold grudges...): after retraining I lost one job as I was both a "graduate trainee" and a chartered engineer, which didn't compute and HR didn't know what to pay me....I offered to keep quiet about the CEng and only be a gratuate trainee, but they gave the job to a 22 year old you didn't give HR any problems.

 

[makeup]

I agree total as this is the situation I am in. Not quite Ceng but Ieng and just cant move. Being a mature student causes problems for HR.

 

[sms]

I recently received the results of a USA mechanical engineering salary survey I participated in. Looks like median salary is very industry dependant....

By type of employer, the five groups of M.E.s with the highest median incomes are:

Consultants (independent) - $105,000
Petroleum/Coal/Natural Gas (extraction & refining) - $101,250 Computers & Allied Products - $94,550 Drugs & Medicine - $94,500 Utilities-Electric - $94,000

The five groups of M.E.s with the lowest median incomes by type of employer are:

Government-State - $62,000
Heating/Air Conditioning/Refrigeration Products - $63,300
Wood and Wood Products - $63,810
Transportation Services - $64,750
Merchandising - $64,907

Median income in the many remaining types of employer studied ranged from $93,100 down to $65,000.

By primary job function, the group of M.E.s who are highest-paid are in General or Corporate Management ($123,500), followed by those in:

Consulting - $94,750
Basic R&D - $86,400
Education - $86,000
Systems Design - $85,000

The lowest median income by primary job function is that earned by those in Production/Processing/Manufacturing Engineering ($74,000), preceded by those in:

Operations & Maintenance - $84,423
Testing/Reliability Assurance/Quality Control/Standards -$75,000 Product Design - $75,000 Equipment Design - $79,400

 

[BobPE]

Quite an interesting picture you paint there with that data SMS....it is almost worthy of its own post with the question..."who fits in this picture?" I think we would get a lot of interesting answers....

BobPE

 

[Tobalcane]

Now when you say MEs, are you saying degreed ME’s or a mixed bag of degreed and nondegreed?

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[hoyle]

no such thing as a skills shortage
never has been
isn't now
won't ever be

shortage of willingness to pay for the skills --- LOADS!

 

[liberty]

When a leading politician talks about getting more women into a certain profession to address a "skills shortage", I suspect that politician is concerned about the apparent lack of diversity in that certain profession. Being overtly concerned about such a thing is to reveal a misunderstanding about the difference between diversity and tolerance.

The practical goal of pursuing diversity for the simple sake of diversity ultimately leads to intolerance of conformity, when the ideal goal should be a meritocracy that is simply blind to gender or race. We made a big mistake in the US with some of our SBA initiatives, like giving discriminatory favor to woman- and minority-owned businesses. At best this creates a landscape where the businesses are being run by the same old boys, smart enough to find a token person with the correct skin color or gender to sit in the front office. At worst, high bidders with inferior abilities are winning contracts over qualified, lower bidders.

Would it make sense to lay off most of the old white guys simply to force cultural diversity? I'm afraid it does as far as too many of these politicians are concerned.

BTW, thanks sms for the informative survey results... I'm currently in Alaska and there's plenty going on up here in certain markets, and the weather's not THAT bad as long as you mostly stay off the northern slope.

 

[paulfrancis]

A "labor shortage" cannot exist. It's the whole supply and demand thing. Wish the professional organizations would start screaming as loud as industry about a "wage shortage" that is insufficient to attract enough students.

Paul.

 

[moltenmetal]

PaulFrancis: you're right, there's a wage shortage- but there's also no shortage of students. It's the supply and demand think, like you've said.

As to the professional organizations screaming about the "wage shortage", don't hold your breath. Dunn where you're from or what your engineering societies are like there, but here in Canada the engineering societies are dominated by consulting engineers, usually senior enough to profit DIRECTLY from the oversupply situation. Some of them are altruists and truly care about the lot of the average engineer, but most aren't. If you're ever confused about an issue, follow the money and you'll discover a part of the motivation...

Until we engineers STOP putting people like this in charge of our professional bodies, nothing will change. Engineering will continue its slide from noble profession on par with medicine and law, to commodity service undifferentiated from the rest of the "technical services sector".

 

[BobPE]

moltenmetal:

"people like this?" I can only imagine...and I think your tone towards your brothers and sisters in consulting is a sign of just how we engineers are to blame for the mess we are in. If I remember my 2003 salary survey here in the US, if it were not for consultants and those engineers that work for them, engineering would be a poverty profession. We constantly struggle with government and industry as consultants rates reflect adequate wages while the clients rates for engineers are not anywhere close. It is always a sore point during negotiating for fees.

I disagree that it is the professional societies responsibility for wages. The societies serve the engineer as a point of peer to peer communication and advocacy. Getting more money is no ones responsibility other than the individuals.

BobPE

 

[HgTX]

"Getting more money is no one's responsibility other than the individual's."

In which case, "if it were not for consultants and those engineers that work for them, engineering would be a poverty profession" doesn't mean that anyone should be actually *grateful* to said consultants; it's all just simple microeconomics.

Groups have more power than individuals, and as was stated somewhere else the professional societies might have the ability to influence the perception of engineers' value, and therefore how much the individual could ask for. If those in a position to do so (those in charge of professional societies with PR budgets) make so much money that they don't see a problem, then the problem isn't going to be solved.

That said, I let my membership in my professional society lapse a couple of years ago. They just didn't feel relevant to me and my individual situation.

Hg

 

[moltenmetal]

BobPE:

Again, dunno what the situation is in the US, but I DO know what it is here in Ontario. According to our salary surveys, consulting engineering pays roughly 20% LESS than the going rate for engineers in manufacturing- regardless of product category. In my books that's HARDLY keeping people out of poverty...though surely those who have jobs are better off than the legions who do not...Is that what you meant?

Though we agree that the responsibility for an engineer's wages lie entirely with the engineers themselves, ultimately it's an issue of supply and demand- something our professional advocacy and licensure bodies BOTH must have something to say about if we're to ever improve the lot of the average engineer. Too often, the choice these days for an engineer is to take poor compensation as an engineer, or to leave the profession in search of better compensation levels. Unfortunately, that's just the way some of the people "running" our profession would like to keep it!

Most consultants are work-a-day engineers who are just trying to do a job and make a buck like anybody else. But these people by and large AREN'T the ones who volunteer and sit for election to the licensure and advocacy bodies in Canada. No- instead, their bosses and their bosses' bosses do. These "senior partners" and vice-presidents and CEOs are people who are compensated significantly in profit-sharing and in dividends arising from their ownership stake in the engineering consulting firms. These people profit DIRECTLY from low salaries and lousy working conditions for engineers arising from over-supply. And we ordinary engineers are IDIOTS because WE elect these people to the councils of our advocacy and regulatory bodies.

As I said, some of these people are altruists who ARE interested in the lot of the average engineer even when that runs contrary to their short-term financial interest, but most of them are NOT. Most of them actively lobby to saddle us with yet more responsibilities and costs of licensure while lobbying AGAINST anything which will affect their bottom line (i.e. like tougher enforcement against the non-licensed and non-engineers). These people even advocate AGAINST spreading the information we have at our disposal about the MASSIVE oversupply of engineers in our market!

 

[BobPE]

HgTX:

I am a consultant if it wasn't obvious from my post...LOL....I am not a member of any or the professional organizations..and probably never will...

I see the wisdom in your post and just wanted to state that I was not glorifying consultants....Some of the best rates around are offered by consultants and give other engineers a good bar to reach for. Not that the rates consultants offer are much to brag about that is...

I would agree with you that in normal situations, groups are empowered. But I think that the individual is the source on empowerment when it comes to engineering. I like to think of individuals in our profession as journeymen, where a standard level of service will be provided for all those that can pay for it. We goup together as we see fit, not as the end user sees fit. I think that is the big difference. Now that said, that is not where we are today...we are a comodity at the service of the end user, not a service available to the end use. People for the most part knock on the door of consultants, allowing them to ask a fee that more closely represents the value of the service. I think moltenmetal was saying that there is a disconnect between what the consultant gets and what the engineers working for the consultant gets....and that is where I was saying it is the individuals responsibility, as a consultant is nothing without the individual.

BobPE

 

[QCE]

"I disagree that it is the professional societies responsibility for wages."

Take a look at doctors and lawyers.