Small Grid USA 3

[Mbrooke]

From the CISA website:

https://www.cisa.gov/energy-sector

The U.S. electricity segment contains more than 6,413 power plants (this includes 3,273 traditional electric utilities and 1,738 nonutility power producers) with approximately 1,075 gigawatts of installed generation. Approximately 48 percent of electricity is produced by combusting coal (primarily transported by rail), 20 percent in nuclear power plants, and 22 percent by combusting natural gas. The remaining generation is provided by hydroelectric plants (6 percent), oil (1 percent), and renewable sources (solar, wind, and geothermal) (3 percent). The heavy reliance on pipelines to distribute products across the nation highlights the interdependencies between the Energy and Transportation Systems Sector.

1,075 gig watts x 1000 = 1,075,000MWs / 6,413 = about 168 MWs per generating stations. Of course they vary in size greatly.


I'm thinking between 500-600 thorium reactor stations could be constructed over time.

This would provide compact carbon free power. No reliance on gas pipelines where in its present state the prolonged failure of any one line leads to massive generation shortages especially in the East. No coal to store, mine or release mercury into the environment.

Semi local location of plants can mean evacuating power between 115-230kv reducing the reliance on large interconnecting power transformers most of which are made over seas.

Electrical energy becomes very cheap over time- at one point General Electric wanted to ditch meters by going nuclear. Homes see more electric cars and electric heat.

Why isn't this being done? Why can't it be done? What is the hold back? And what are the technical limitations?

I'm highly optimistic- we must take this route.

 

[DM61850]

Your basically asking if DER (distributed energy resources) make sense. In California, where they are paying $0.30 per kwh, it makes perfect sense only because California did not prioritize cheap electricity or if you have a pessimistic view, runs their grid badly. Thorium reactors will never be cheap enough but solar is cheap enough in some places for small residential and commercial setups to compete on the grid. Same with small battery installations. In general though, the grid is extremely well designed and efficient. That said though, solar installations on a utility scale cost about half as much per a unit of energy vs small scale. If the grid is run efficiently and everyone's goal is to purchase power and design the grid as cheaply as possibly, the grid would stay very similar to how it currently is with bicycle spokes extending from generation. Solar panels would not be on people's houses if the grid was run well and people didn't have a overwhelming desire to show how green they are.

One thing that is going for small setups is they also get reimbursed in some areas at a completely different rate than markets nodes clear out due to inputting electricity at the distribution level instead of into the transmission. Nodes might be clearing out at $30 per MWHr but someone sell power into the grid at the distribution level might be getting $100 per MWHr. I don't know how common that is but it is true for some states in the southeast in MISO. When I was talking with someone about DER resources, none of it was making financial sense to me until they brought up this point.

 

[Mbrooke]

I can't see solar and wind being enough- let alone to meet growing demand. There has to be fossil or nuclear generation for at least half of it. At least.

 

[Palletjack]

Sure, solar is cheap. But what do you do when it’s cloudy all day or at night?
Batteries? Not cost effective

 

[Mbrooke]

Just want to add that 600 1,500MW generating station isn't DER IMO.

30-50 years ago there were way more local coal plants and much fewer ties to other utilities.

 

[prc]

What may happen is changing all hydro electric projects in to pumped storage plants that will suck power during solar power is on. Similarly all battery charging will be at solar peak time.

 

[Mbrooke]

Maybe. But I still think that money could be put toward thorium brown/green fields.

 

[DM61850]

Mbrooke,

160MW per a generating facility is small for a conventional generating facility. I was under the impression that if adopted thorium reactors would be scattered all around the grid and be small, sub 100 MW in size.

 

[Mbrooke]

We can do that too, but I was thinking 600 1,500-2000MW generating stations scattered through out the US. We have the space to build them, especially where old coal plants are being demolished.

 

[mparenteau]

Recently listened to a self-proclaimed environmentalist state that, "...smaller power density, more environmental impact and larger power density, the less the environmental impact." Nuclear power, more and more, seems to make sense.

Mike

 

[Mbrooke]

Nuclear power is the only viable solution. Even if we put solar panels on every roof and a windmill on every corner we can't store that energy effectively assuming we can produce enough in the first place.

 

[thermionic1]

The one other drawback I've seen for nuclear are security costs. We have a client that owns several plants in several states. The electrical supervisor at one of the smaller (600MW) plants was telling me a few years ago, that they were more profitable than a larger plant (1300 MW), but the security costs were killing them. I learned later that the 600 MW plant was shut down.

Anyone who has worked in a nuke plant post 9-11 probably has an idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[Mbrooke]

As I understand it those facilities can withstand a direct plane crash come worse case. Thorium reactors fix the melt down concern.

 

[DM61850]

Meltdowns can't occur with a lot of designs in the united states. They have a negative coefficient so they are self regulating.

 

[Mbrooke]

Not true- a total station blackout persisting for hours on end will result in the core melting into the earth. Hence melt down, which is different than what happened at Chernobyl but still dangerous.

 

[stevenal]

Nuscale EPZ Look for "meltdown" on the page.

 

[argotier]

Nice to see followers of the nuclear renaissance.

Aside security and costs, the technical limit I see for the nuclear share in the generation matrix is that its a baseload type of power plant. The intermediate and peak demand still has to be supplied by dispatchable generation as gas turbines and hydro.

 

[Mbrooke]

What would it take to make nuclear ride those waves?

 

[prc]

I have been hearing about nuclear fusion reactors and the abundant cheap power from them since I was in college 60 years back. But the destination seems still faraway due to inherent technical problems. Many countries, including mine are storing thorium for that D day. Definitely lithium batteries are not the solution for energy storage, as soon, we will be flooded with used batteries as plastic waste. Human ingenuity has no limit and who knows better reusable batteries may come up or compressed air will be used to run turbines with air storage underground. Sure,everything will change,except change.

 

[waross]

Candu reactors s are moderated by heavy water and are self protecting.
When a runaway reaches the point that the core loses the water the reaction stops.

Bill
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"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter