Steel Building without Shop Drawings? 2

[sundale]

I would like some input on the following issue.

I have a two story 190'x43' or so steel building. The roof is framed with bar joists with steel spandrels and columns and the floor is composite steel beams and girders with steel WF and tube columns. The lateral system is a steel OMRF at the roof and cip ordinary reinforced shearwalls from the floor to ground.

Our notes and specifications both call for steel shop drawings. The owner's lowest bid fabricator, who is also the erector, is going to fabricate the pieces without any shop drawings.

I wrote a pretty stern letter to the Owner stating:
1. the drawings represent our professional opinion: a directive not a suggestion
2. it is standard industry practice to do shops for such a structure
3. I may not have time to drop all other projects to deal with field fixes when these pieces are hanging from a crane
4. I do not see how a welder could make the pieces without having a detailed piece drawing in front of him
4. there are many prescribed Special Inspection requirements that need to be met in the shop and the field

Basically, I was overruled by the Owner and received a nasty letter from them with the following adjectives: arrogant, condescending, ridiculous, unwilling, unprofessional, etc... How fun.

The drawings represent the final product and how the contractor gets there is definitely a "means and methods" issue. On the flip side, I have never heard of trying to do such a project without steel shops. Another local fabricator (whose bid was higher) said they would not try such a thing. Every structural engineer I have talked to said that's crazy to do this without shops.

As an example, the fabricator's column erection scheme is to field weld the column to the base plate. I asked him how does one plumb the column as I think the weld shrinkage upon cooling will pull the column out of plumb. He said that's no problem with a 12' level on the column... There is a reason the rest of the world uses shim and grout or double nuts and grout to plumb a column.

The only "stick" I have left is the Chapter 17 Special Inspection stuff. This is law. Writing a response to an Owner's letter like that is most likely a waste of time: their opinion is formulated.

Any opinions and/or sage advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[HgTX]

Sounds awful. What is your role--designer? AISC may have some advice for you on how to proceed in a case like this; it's against their industry interest to have bad fabrication and erection out there.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[sundale]

We are the structural EOR. I had not thought to see what AISC has to say, that's a very good idea. I submitted a technical question to their "solutions center" like a month ago and never received an answer. Do you get a hold of a human being at AISC by contacting their regional engineer?

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Opinion: Look at this crazy situation from another angle. The Owner has turned the job into a design-build project. Inform the Owner (in writing) that your role under these circumstances will be limited to interpretation of the intent of YOUR existing drawings. Because of this decision by the Owner, you "regret" that you will not be able to offer any "new" technical input on the project. The reason is that shop drawings are the "only" way that you can get a true understanding of the Contractor's proposals. Be sure to document everything and let them (Contractor & Owner) solve their own problems.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[oldrunner]

Did you required shop drawings for your review on your drawing?

If there is a possibility of numerous problems with field fixes, do you know of another engineering firm that can handle that aspect of it, possibly hired and directly paid by the owner?

If there are problems with the field erection stuff, do you have a strong building department that will back you up on decisions?

Notify your E&O agent now and get them involved with legal advice. Mine provides this as part of the insurance - initially at no cost.

We've had some very bad problems in the past with steel fabricator's upsurping the design engineers decisions. One client eventually went belly up and another had to take the steel back to his yard and do major modifications because of the screw ups.

 

[Dinosaur]

It seems to me this is a straight forward legal question. It appears to me that you have exercised the usual standard of care by requiring shops. Is the owner a licensed engineer that is able to take responsibility for the project or not. If the owner has made the decision to proceed in manner contrary to the EOR, then he is now the engineer, right? Is he now practicing engineering without a license?

It sounds to me like your done with this client anyway. I'd go all out to protect myself. Get whatever legal help you need.

 

[jike]

Enough mistakes can happen with shop drawings but without, I can only imagine....

I can see the Owner possibly setting you up to take the fall for any contractor's misintepretations of your drawings. That is why there is a review of shop drawings, to prevent those errors from occuring.

You might want to talk with your insurance agent on the best approach to take.

 

[HgTX]

For contacting AISC, I'm not sure. I deal with them mostly from the certification end. I guess either the regional engineer, or their main number at (312) 670-2400.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[dik]

Let the owner/contractor run with it... Do your field reviews as you normally would and if the OWSJ, connections or other components requires a PE seal, then ask for this. Without these you cannot certify the final construction...

Having shop drawings can also be a liability...

Dik

 

[sundale]

Thank you all for your input. This project is quickly becoming a mess and they have not dug a spoonful of dirt yet.

For liability reasons, I think that I will have to write yet another letter expounding upon some of the concepts you guys have brought up.

It will be a CYA antagonist construction process the whole way out now: this is a drain at a number of levels.

 

[PT999]

At the conclusion of the project, most building departments require a letter stating work complies with approved drawings. That would certainly be a good time to say that they don't, as you are still waiting for shop drawings to be reviewed for approval.

I have a similar situation, and I have told the building department inspectors this. They have in turn stated that they will not issue a certificate of occupancy. Eventually I expect that shop drawings will show up.

Of course the building is built, but there are connection issues that will be disputed, and may require rework

 

[JStephen]

My guess is that the fabricator wants to prepare shop drawings (of a sort) but not submit them. For example, they may be working off of marked up contract drawings, or standard details or computer printouts. We have run into this on occasion, where you have "submittal drawings" that are adequate to show the structure, but in no way adequate to build it. Not that I'm justifying the situation, just guessing at what's behind it.

The main thing that stands out to me is if you have any issues such as connection details or weld details or bolt sizes that are not called out on your drawings.

 

[DRC1]

This sounds like a train wreck. You can see the two trains racing toward each other, but the inevtable can not be prevented. The only advice in that situation is to jump. I am a contractor (Heavy Marine) and can not imagine something like that. If someone wanted me to field weld the columns, I would ask to bolt and grout. So much easier to fit up. Obviously the owner sees his intrests more aligned with the steel contractor than you. (That's a switch)When this thing falls apart and cost and time skyrocket, they will be looking for someone to blame, and I suspect you will move to the top of the list. Do not write anymore letters with out talking to your attorney. Dicuss how you get off the project and leave the liablilty where it belongs, with the owner and contractor. remeber the best law suits are the ones that miss you.

 

[jen4950]

Bingo on the advice above -> contact your lawyer.

Ask yourself.. Do you really want to buy a building you won't own after you pay for it? That's what this is looking like.

Shop Drawings are the last chance for a trained eye to make sure the structure will perform as intended; but devil's advocate in me says that the owner is well on his way to making sure that he's not going to pay for his building, or at least all of it.

 

[JStephen]

It may be a little late, but how familiar are you with the contractor's work? That is, have they used these procedures and had satisfied clients on previous jobs?

Is this project possibly not your regular line of work (IE, an industry you normally serve)? I ask because in the past, I have noticed that different industries have different expectations regarding how work is done. The owner may perceive you as using nuclear engineering requirements on a farm building.

 

[henri2]

My knowledge on the legal aspect of this situation is at best pedestrian. Nevertheless I do have some questions regarding application of the building code to find a way out.

The questions I have are as follows:

1. Does the jurisdiction have any additional regulations beyond what is stated in the IBC that addresses the need for shop drawings? My thinking here is that IBC Sec 2205.1 directs us to the appropriate AISC Spec; and if you are using ASD, Section M1 of the AISC 335 does require shop drawings.

2. Is there any jurisdictional regulation that does not permit ALL welding fabrication to be done in the field by an erector who is not an approved fabricator? I do not know of any provision in the IBC that precludes it. Nevertheless, I know of many jurisdictions that have regulations that would not permit it. In fact, the increased costs associated with additional special inspection (IBC Table 1704.3..quite a bit in here) for field fabrication should make the use of an approved fabricator a wise choice. Have you talked with the folks in the building department about this?

 

[archeng59]

contacting an attorney is good advice. I'd contact my liability insurance carrier to see if there is anything they recommend.

 

[sundale]

Good stuff Henri2. Thanks.

I bought up all the special inspection issues to the Owner, but I'll need to point this out to the building department as well. They may not be aware of all the Chapter 17 stuff, but I expect that they will back me up. I did not know that steel shops were prescribed in AISC 335. It is simply a good idea and standard practice.

We are contacting our liabilty insurance carrier about this gem of a project.

 

[ArneG]

In my experience, owners that take this sort of forked road are looking for reasons not to pay consultants, watch your accounts receivable.

 

[geoffdale]

Stupid input, but since you require shops for the owsj, I would assume that these a pre-engineered owsj? Would this not make the shops part of the mandatory drawings for the building Permit, since they are not really detailed anywhere (from what I would assume?) I would walk, if you are not allowed to do your professional diligence. How do you know that the owsj are designed correctly or pick up imposed additional loads, etc?