Structural engineer career line 11

[Awab95]

Hi guys,I want to know what is the best time to do master degree in structure; before SE exam or after, also what is the best time to do MBA?

Edit: is the master degree worth it if I did SE exam,and is the MBA worth it?

 

[DaveAtkins]

I am not sure I see the value in either Master's degree. You only need an undergrad degree in engineering to have a successful engineering career. If you want to become a manager, you will learn more on the job than any MBA can teach you.

DaveAtkins

 

[structSU10]

The benefit of a masters is the credentials being presented to clients. I know some of the partners in my firm reference some 'looking down upon' type attitude against the partner with 'only' a bachelors degree. This is likely very specific clients, but it is worth consideration. I don't know the value of an MBA.

 

[Mohanlal0488]

I began with my masters degree, the option I chose was a 50/50 split between coursework and thesis. I completed the coursework and attained a graduate diploma for the coursework, no masters as I did not complete the thesis.

I found the research component to be useless in reality, as a masters or even doctorate does not make you a good engineer. Personally I feel improving your skills in various areas of interest makes you far better and marketable.

I've seen a number of jobs where the preferred qualification is a masters, but I think that has normally been put in due to HR not understanding the job. Honestly you could have done your masters on "HSE issues on construction sites" how would that give you a leading edge in a design job? Obviously in certain cases it may work in your favor, but I've seen far to many people with masters degrees and doctorates who are below average engineers.

 

[RWW0002]

I disagree somewhat with the value in a Master's Degree. Many undergraduate degrees have been transitioning to more of a "breadth of knowledge" approach instead of a "depth of knowledge" approach, with the understanding that many engineers now pursue a Master's. Even with a structures-heavy undergraduate degree, I feel like I gained a lot of valuable information in grad school that I would otherwise not have been exposed to while also getting a taste of structures-related research. While you may learn "more" on the job in those first few years, having the additional background theory can really come in handy from time to time both on the job and studying for the SE (and while you may not use it as often, this background theory and advanced topics study is much harder to come by "naturally" in the design world).

Many of my peers went directly into the workforce after undergrad. After 18 months there was a major economic downturn and I was seeing many of these guys back interviewing for the same jobs that I was coming out of grad school. I cannot speak for the employers, but I definitely never felt like my Master's was wasted time, and I fared pretty well in these interviews compared to the other "experienced" candidates.

As far as timing, I would recommend going directly to grad school after undergraduate, and definitely before taking the SE.

 

[Mohanlal0488]

@RWW0002

Are you taking about a course based masters degree or research?

 

[drbrainsol]

Also worth noting that in some countries (eg. the UK) a Master's Degree is pretty much essential for any engineering professional qualification (Chartership with the ICE or iStructE).

If you ever want to practise outside of the US, you may have difficulties gaining professional recognition without a Master's Degree.

An MBA is only relevant if you want to advance your career past middle management in a large multinational corporation (at which point your work will have nothing to do with engineering anymore).

 

[dauwerda]

Many of the structural engineers I have worked with did not have a master's, so it certainly isn't a requirement. I do feel as if there has been a push to put more weight on a master's, particularly for structural engineering (all of our professors in the structural department recommended it). I went through a non-thesis (so extra course work) master's program - which I would recommend to anyone wanting to be a structural engineer. By taking the master's classes I was able to get that much more experience (which most states also count as a year of work experience on the road to get the PE and/or SE) with a wide range of structural engineering aspects and theory. For instance, I had a concrete bridge class where we went through the design of a bridge from start to finish, an advanced structural dynamics class that focused on earthquake design (and theory), an advanced steel class that actually got into connection design that was basically glossed over in undergrad. I certainly felt as if it gave me a more technical background that gave me a one-up on my piers during the hiring process straight out of school.

If you are going to do a masters degree, I would certainly do it before the SE as many of the classes would probably help you prepare for the SE exam.

 

[STrctPono]

It depends on the type of work that you do. Many structures can be designed on the backside of a bar top napkin. Others require a significant amount more work coupled with a strong theoretical background. TBH, a BS degree just doesn't always cut it. I can personally say that I have a handful of jobs that I have done in my career that I would never have been able to tackle without the knowledge gained during my MS degree. If you plan on running a significant amount of computer analysis, then a MS is going to be a bare minimum requirement. It would really help if you knew what kind of Engineering you wanted to get in to. Unfortunately, fresh graduates don't always have that foresight.

My boss if very adamant on Engineering theory and only hires people with at least a MS degree. He also puts his money where his mouth is and spends a significant amount of money on expensive FEA programs and pushes us to learn the programs and to actually use them. There are many jobs that we get because the other Engineering firms in our city just can't/won't do the analysis.

Get your MS before you sit for your SE. Ideally, you would want to get your MS right after your BS.

 

[KootK]

Echoing some others' opinions and adding a few new ones of my own:

THE MSc STRUCTURAL

1) For better or worse, the trend in the US seems to be that large, top tier firms are asking for Masters degrees with their rookie engineers. In this respect, it therefore makes sense to hit grad school before you hit the job market.

2) There is a very real chance that your master's degree may plant within you a bug for academia. If that's the case, then you'd be much better served by getting started with your graduate career earlier rather than later as academia definitely a young person's game with respect to career trajectory.

3) I feel that the timing of your masters degree is mostly unrelated to when you take your SE. The SE is a practical exam that should require no more academic knowledge than you should have gotten with your bachelors degree but a great deal more practical knowledge that you could only ever get on the job. In terms of theoretical material, I would expect and hope that your masters degree course content would be elevated well above anything that you would need for SE.

4) I started my course based masters seven years into my engineering career. I feel that the quality of my learning benefited enormously from that. Having a sense for how real engineers deal with real problems is a huge asset when it comes to approaching new academic information. That said, I could have achieved the same effect by just reading some good books and forgoing the masters altogether. It takes some serious discipline to do it autodidactically though, so the structured program is helpful there.

THE MBA

5) In my neck of the woods, there are dual stream programs where you can get and MSc and and MBA in three years. If I had it to do over again, I might have done that.

6) I would again do the MBA early on. I feel that folks often tend to think of this in the reverse order that they should. Usually people wait until they get a management opportunity and then get the MBA to bone up on the skills required for it. I feel that the reality is that, as a junior engineer, you need to demonstrate an aptitude for project management and entrepreneurship before you get the management gig. Otherwise you simply may not get it. So early on is when the knowledge and commitment to PM and entrepreneurship will really benefit you. Another thing to consider is that many MBA's subsequently decide that they would rather be business people than engineers. If that's the case, it will behoove you to figure that out early on.

7) In my opinion, a "Serious MBA" is someone who goes to one of only a handful of top tier business schools and goes there more for the social network that they will gain access to than the knowledge that they will acquire. These folks are headed to wall street and fortune 500 firms and would probably be disgusted to find themselves at the helm of a lowly, engineering consulting firm. As for the rest of us "non-serious MBA's", I'm not actually sure that the MBA is required. Much can be learned on the job and it's quite an easy thing to pick up most of the content of an MBA program from books. I've been doing that myself for a while now. You know, just truly the art of business administration as the letters of MBA would suggest. All this said, a non-elite MBA would still have value for:

a) Demonstrating to an employer that you are interested in and committed to entrepreneurship and;

b) Acquiring business administration knowledge in a structured way if self study isn't your game.

 

[RWW0002]

For me the only options was a research-based Masters of Science in Civil Engineering with structural emphasis (with around 26 hrs of coursework required and a research based thesis) and a course based Masters of Civil Engineering with structural emphasis(with around 30 hours of coursework with a "problem paper") I did the research-based option and took some extra design classes and ended up with 30+ hours of coursework and the thesis. If programs are set up similarly, I recommend the research-based route while taking as many extra courses as allowable (even auditing some where possible). This way you get plenty of coursework and get the fun and enriching experience of writing a 200+ page thesis as part of the deal.. Kidding aside, learning to write technically during my thesis process has served me well through my career and by going the research route, you may be more likely to get a research assistantship to help pay for your education. If you are in engineering and are having to pay for graduate school you may be doing it wrong..

 

[Awab95]

Thank you so much guys,I really appreciate your help,from your nice help: I am convinced that master degree is beneficial, and that to do before SE exam, and that's better if it has MBA program within it but not that necessary. But I have another question: is it better to have good work experience before master, or it's better to do it right after bachelor?

Edit: it seems is better to do it right after bachelor as it's demand in job market.

 

[dauwerda]

See KootK's point number 4 above.

I got my master's immediately after my undergrad. I have also since taken a few other master's courses online as stand alone classes (after/during working full time for years). I can without a doubt say that I got more out of the courses I took while practicing as an engineer. However, that could be attributed to multiple things and it would be hard (for me) to argue that it would always be the case for every individual.

 

[NorthCivil]

In my opinion, structural engineering doesn't pay enough to spend 6 years in university, using a cost/return perspective.

If you have already finished undergrad, and are itching to study for multiple years more, there are other careers to invest in that will yield much higher returns

 

[JedClampett]

Awab95, there was a trend in the industry to require a masters degree (not an MBA) as the minimum level to be licensed as a Civil PE. I haven't heard about it in a few years, but that doesn't mean it's dead and gone.
My personal experience was to get a master's degree right after my BS. I had a slightly different motivation. First, I had a full tuition, board and fees assistantship (dorm advisor), and second, and most important, I couldn't get a job. So I just kept going and 14 months later, I had a masters degree and a job.
I don't know how someone could get back into class and student life after working and getting a paycheck, but it's done all the time. Your expenses seem to ramp up to match your pay, and you can't (won't) reduce your standard of living.

 

[r13]

I finished my MS degree while on the job. My dear advisor recommended course base unless ready for an academic career. It took me longer to complete my degree, and didn't bring me immediate reward, as well as my first license that came about the same time, since my office was filled with licensed MS and Ph'D's. After that, I think the license has helped more in landing new jobs, but my graduate course works has helped me in critical thinking and judgement making. I don't know MBA though. You will likely be successful in most working environments, if you are more practical than theoretical.

 

[Aesur]

The only benefit to a masters degree now days is because the bachelors degree teaches little of what you need to know. In general college tends to teach you how to look up how to do something; now days colleges require too much general education stuff that takes time away from classes that mean something, but hey they have to find ways to employee the people getting worthless degrees that can only teach right. They do this by changing the curriculum such that you need a masters to feel like you know what you are doing.

The problem with a masters degree is you spend extra time in college that you could have spent working and learning much more. Many employers don't care if you have a masters and would prefer someone who doesn't because of the following reasons:
1. Masters and PHD's tend to think of themselves as "God's gift to engineering" and come off as arrogant know-it-all's.
2. Masters and PHD's demand outrageous salaries that only the largest companies can afford.
3. Most structural engineering firms are on the small to medium size, with around 30 or less employees, this means they cannot afford the large salary demands on top of the cost of training, most cannot even afford to train anymore it seems.

I personally prefer to hire people without masters degree, but wouldn't be opposed to hiring someone with a masters as long as they accept that their salary will be the same as that of a person without a masters until they know what they need to know to design a project rather than just think about how to design it.

 

[skeletron]

In my ideal world, a student would graduate from their engineering program and go straight to work for 2-3 years. They would then pursue a graduate degree if they wanted to stay technical.

In the real world, get a graduate degree early for 2 simple reasons:
1) You have more opportunity to get into grad school right out of your undergraduate program. The professors are more readily available for references and your mind is already in the academic zone.
2) Almost every junior position I have seen in my entire career has expected a master's degree.

My experience with #1 is that it becomes an absolute BS experience trying to track down your profs 10 years later and you'll have a hard time competing with credentials unless you are a 4.0 student.

My experience with #2 is that there is a 3% chance you'll get a successful interview and job in a masters required position, without a master's degree.

 

[KootK]

The demand for Masters degrees is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy for entry level folks. Other than personality, education is most of what a new grad is selling. So, if a company has the luxury of choosing between one gal with a MSc and anther with a BEng, why not the MSc (Aseur excepted)? Ditto for recruiters. Once HR tells a recruiter that their firm would consider an MSc an asset, the BEng applications slip down the queue. And, obviously, your average recruiter doesn't realize how little of a difference it makes in finding a quality candidate.

So, to prevent getting the short shrift in these situations, we go out and get our masters degrees. And then there are more MSc candidates available and the thing perpetuates itself.

My last job in the US was with one of the dominant firms dominant firms in their region. I was very happy to be there and I got hired with my BEng. I remember clear as day the founder walking me around the office and saying "you'll find that most of us have advanced degrees...". He was a wonderful fellow and I'm pretty sure that what he meant was "Don't let all the MSc's floating around intimidate you, we know better". What I heard was "Welcome to being one of the lesser educated folks among your peers". That's just not how I roll so I reconciled myself to night school on the drive home. Call it a character flaw or an ego deficiency.

I don't regret the choice at all even though the economic advantage in my case has almost certainly been negative with consideration given to opportunity costs and the time value of money.

 

[MrHershey]

I recommend MS degrees if you want to focus on structures, or at least if you want to do larger scale structures. Think about 90% of the engineers at my firm have a master's degree. Clearly not required, but it's typical and I'd take the MS candidate over the BS candidate a majority of the time.

In the US that extra coursework makes a huge difference. At my university you could graduate with a BS with only five pure structures courses (Intro, Steel, Concrete, Design, Matrix Analysis). The non-thesis MS adds nine more. Some you'll probably never use again, but the second steel/concrete courses and some of the higher analysis and design electives really help jump-start the career quite a bit.

I don't really see the benefit of an MBA unless you want a senior management position in a large company some day.