Sucked into turbine 3

[1503-44]

https://youtu.be/sHrF-d98Hts

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[spsalso]

If that "assembly" was only there to fix air flow, then all that "stuff" in the middle would seem unnecessary. All those bolt heads, all that tie wire. Providing access to what, when removed?


spsalso

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I presume that contains the number one bearing oil stuff and also the anti ice system for the inlet cone. Its a twin shafted closed oil system usually. Around 50 psi for the compressor section. The HP turbine has a sperate oil system I think. Some of those old engines also had variable airflow vents on the side of the cowls which were opened and close by suction.

That front bit is quite chunky on all aero engines. You normally don't see it though because it has a cone over which on some engines moves to make sure no mach shockwaves hit the front disk.

But I am throwing suggestions out. I really don't know for sure.

 

[TugboatEng]

The inlet guide vane standard equipment for large compressors, aviation and industrial. Some are fixed, some are variable, some double as struts to support the front bearing.

Here is a J58 engine, they're clearly fixed.

If you want to see an example of foreign object exclusion on an aircraft, check out the intake flaps on the MiG-29. They completely shut off the intake scoops in the front and have louvers up by the cockpit to supply air for ground operations.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Those vanes are hollow as well and hot compressor gas is blow through them. That hole on the trailing edge does something special as well

By grandfathers brother (Uncle John) was part of the team at Rolls Royce that worked out the acid etching of the tubes through them and Titanium turbine blades. He was a technician doing the etching by hand. When clearing out the house we found various bits and pieces. I just emailed RR and said we had found various things of suspect ownership which might be theirs and would send them to the science museum to keep everyone happy if that was ok?. Got a phone call back saying what a lovely way of dealing with the situation but can you credit us? How about you pick them up and deal with it, as you will know what they actually are and will be able to give supporting information for display. Apparently they are on display in 3 museums now, some bits over in Washington. They were worth a fair bit in scrap metal value.

Modern turbo fans have them as well but you can't see them on the core until you get up close and look through the fan. The PW1500G and other geared fan engines have a gearbox in front of that area as well these days.

My knowledge of turbines stems from Uncle John and Uni thermo labs, as pilots we are not expected to know.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

some might find this interesting.

the loads that the number 1 bearing has to deal with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j973645y5AA

This one has some good shots of what's behind that plate and lock wire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LZwkdGU0-g&t=324s

4:50

 

[JStephen]

I saw a news blurb that mentioned a preliminary report, and was able to track that down.
If this link works, great, otherwise, I'll try to attach the pdf.

https://t.co/rQE7FJ2Rpl?ref_src=tws...twterm^screen-name:NTSB_Newsroom|twcon^s1_c14

 

[LittleInch]

Would have been good to know what level of ear defenders they were wearing.

Clearly the "huddle" didn't work. Nearly a second incident from the person at the rear getting blown over.

Also no mention of if there were markings on the ground indicating a demarcation line.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[dik]

Is that ever a neat facility...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Seems it was the same person that got hit by the jet wash and then went round the front to open the hold.

Mum of 3.

Apparently there are discussions on going about banning engine running GPU hook ups with APU offline in Europe. The pilots, regulators and ground handlers are in favour of it. Airlines and airports are not for some reason, and they have the accident reports to show we are way inside the normal fatality limits. But they have no data for how many aircraft are flying without APU which I suspect is very few because its so limiting. Its been over a decade apparently since the last ground crew got killed. We would just have to do a black aircraft reset but to be honest it takes 10-15 mins for the IRS/Gyros to come back up and sync then another 5 to load up the flight plan and performance. Which isn't an issue on a turn round at the beginning it will all be back up again by the time we are ready for boarding.

Reading the report there isn't much else the airport could have done. In Africa they sometimes have a box where every one has to stand in apart from one or two people with different coloured hi viz vests and there is a man with a gun to stop them leaving until the different coloured hiz vests tell them to let them out. The cones thing I can understand with turbo props but jets its pretty pointless.

 

[LittleInch]

there isn't much else the airport could have done

The thing that got me was the complete lack of ground markings visible. Now you will visit airport aprons a whole heap more than me, but is there not some standard or relative uniformity about this?

Whatever it is it seems to be a lot more than the complete lack of any surface painting of lines in the airport in question. fatalities only tell you the tip of the iceberg, not the size of the iceberg. I can't see why embedded lights in the apron aren't a thing here?

Though the non routine aspect seems to have been crucial here.

It's the wording of the "ingestion zone" that seems very strange here.

So what's "normal"?
Start the APU on taxi, shut down one engine on taxi and then the second when you get there, hook up ground power and then shut down APU?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Yes there is where I fly and there are IACO standards for it. But unless a civilian airport is international it doesn't have to conform to those standards. And you can get exceptions as long as you document them...

You don't have lights in the apron in a lot of airports. They can't use tarmac because it gets murdered by Jet A so they use concrete slab which is also better for not creeping. So where I am you will get embedded light on the tarmac area but nothing on the concrete and then lights again on the tarmac road just beyond the parking spot. But there various painted lines absolutely everywhere but you can't see them when its covered with snow.

With the APU working

Leaving...

Start the APU up about 10 mins before off chocks unless the CC are complaining its hot or cold in the back and you start it earlier. Then once you check that all the buses are powered and the GCU isn't having a brain fart you disconnect it and then signal or speak to ground crew and get rid of it. Push and start the engines then when they are both on line kill the APU unless performance requires it to stay on.

Arriving.

The engines need a cool down period after landing once that's finished after 3-6 mins you can do single engine taxi if the condition requirements are met. Most aircraft need the APU running to get redundancy for the brakes etc others don't
You start the APU at least 90 seconds before you get onto stand if its not required for single engine taxi (they all seem to take 90 seconds to start). If you time it right it takes over the electric power just as you put the hand brake on. Then its two switch's or fuel handles to off. Some engines purge the fuel injectors briefly others don't. But its all done in under 5 seconds then beacon off.

Then once the Ground power is connected and checked that the voltage is good then transfer onto it and shut the APU down. But on short turn rounds under 40 mins its usually cheaper in fuel to leave it on than the cycle cost. Ours burn 80kg an hour unloaded and 130kg electric and aircon.

 

[zeusfaber]

If they do ban engine running GPU hook ups with APU offline, will they also ban engine running GPU disconnects with APU offline? I'm guessing that would be much harder to manage.

A.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

you couldn't do it because you would kill the IRS and it would need to align which takes about 10 mins plus reload the FMS. You would also have a 40 PSI air start unit attached which is a big beast with a tow truck.

With that you start one engine hooked up, then get rid of the ground equipment. Start the push then do a cross bleed start from the other engine.

I don't think they will ban it, the statistic data doesn't warrant it.

I am going to stop saving 150 euro doing it in certain places now because of this thread.

With every respect and feeling for the victim.

I can only imagine what the crew and pax are feeling just now. Its bad enough when you have a bird strike. It doesn't matter if they visually covered the engine or used a rear door or air bridge, its the smell that will stay with them the rest of there lives. I hope everyone involved mental health is looked after and recovered.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Training videos pilot side

737 sim pilot vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHrvc3ObEt8

A320

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z96Rd39zjw

Can't find one for Emb but it will be something similar.

There are also loads of ground crew videos like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81WWPoifreI

And this one has an ATR arrival which don't have a APU they have a hotel mode on the right number 2 engine which is a break on the props. Which nobody likes to use because its noisy and the brake wears out quickly. Its hold is accessed on the LHS also the pax door is on that side at the rear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb1gkNHx8dc

But it has similar distances compared to a EMb135 engines to ground services.

Just found a vid of the aircraft type involved arrival with APU working

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgEPbg1quR0

And BTW that red flip up guard switch on the emb when he put the GPU connector in, is the bane of an A220's pilots life. Its to turn off the steering. We have a very similar looking switch but its the emergency kill switch for the APU doing empty cockpit ground movements. People occasionally forget and kill our power just before push back and then its 20 mins to get everything back again.

 

[LittleInch]

This one has an interesting bit about minute 3.00. Exactly what I was saying - the Redline. Just shows how easy it is to simply walk around the aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qqyk4FFI9Y

But that single red light I think would be difficult to see in many circumstances amid all the other flashing lights. I think airplane manufacturers and engine suppliers could do better than this.



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There is one on the top as well and you can still fly with them broken.

When I train new pilots I used to tell them don't go towards the aircraft coming in until you see the top one is off and if you can't see the top turn round and walk way away until you can and that's a safe distance.

I too find the lower one problematic because its blocked by the gear and engines on a lot of aircraft.

Lines on the apron get covered with snow in the winter. Scandi countries use different colours because of this. They use yellow lines instead of white. Pilots have an aversion to yellow snow...

Unfortunately the type 1 deicing fluid produces a pink slush which is similar to old red line under snow.

Most airports the ramp crew boss that you can see putting the chocks in is the furthest forward and nobody goes past them until he releases them.

Its not up to Aircraft OEMs what the required lights are. Its ICAO and its been the same lights since the COMET was flying.

Those beacons you really don't want to mess with huge capacitors in them and high voltage.

 

[LittleInch]

Well this landing with a non operational APU is starting to looks so dangerous and non routine that maybe they should park at a remote stand and get towed into place with no engines running? Would make the airlines repair them a bit faster I think.

There must be so many near misses for this sort of thing though - it's just the reporting which doesn't happen.

And that phrase is half the battle - " its been the same lights since the COMET was flying."



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its not though there will be hundreds of aircraft doing it every day probably thousands of flights in America every day, never mind the rest of the world. And the last ingestion fatality in Europe was over 5 years ago and I am not even sure that involved the APU being MEL'd.

You have the same issue where ever you park. To me taking a black aircraft reset on stand is not a problem. But other aircraft types it may result in issues.

Airlines repair them fast anyway, not going into detail but its an utter pain in the bum them not working for all involved. We have loads of limitations imposed and other things which would normally not be an issue departing with are now show stoppers. It turns very expensive very quickly and that's without a fatality.

Wait until the final report, its never solely one item or factor. The NTSB you should rightly be proud of, they will get to the bottom of what happened. The APU will feature but there will be a long list of other human factors involved.

 

[TugboatEng]

The obvious answer here is to control the number of personnel on the tarmac during such an event. There should be one manager who clears the aircraft to be approached after the GPU has been connected and engines secured. If the engines cannot be secured until GPU is connected, only that portion of the ground crew should be allowed on deck.

What really surprises me is that she was blown over by the wash behind the engine and then proceeded to walk around to the front? I would be curious to see a toxicology report but the union is never going to allow that information to be public.


Semi-related:

This one happened recently but didn't make as big of a headline, maybe the monetary damages are much higher having to tear down an engine.

https://www.wwnytv.com/2022/08/31/b...belt-loader-entanglement-new-orleans-airport/

Horrific way to go. I wonder what safeguards are engineered into such a machine?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

that's the way its normally done tug even in Africa. And that's a normal one with everything working.

The union has no say in it if there was anything in toxicity report the NTSB will have it in the report if it was a factor.

BTW in my base airport everyone on the ramp gets breathalysed going through security and they also take random hair samples for drug testing.

Its not only tear down the engine. The whole aircraft now is a bio hazard.