Systems Design Engineering 1

[Narfed]

I graduated from the Department of Systems Design Engineering. It was a program developed in 1969 (undergrad level) to meet a projected need in the engineering world.

It doesn't seem that this field has happend or is likely to happen in the next 5 years or ever.

If anything it's a very senior position for someone with extensive lateral experience.

I'm a new grad so I don't know this, what would be the career path to become a systems design engineer?

Here is a snipet of the program description.

The Department of Systems Design Engineering has evolved over the years into a unique interdisciplinary department in Engineering. Its undergraduate curriculum represents a rational response to increasingly complex situations in modern technological society, involving not only technical, but also environmental, socio-economic and political factors. It is a well balanced program, designed to enable each individual student to find optimum solutions to multifaceted complex problems. A set of special interdisciplinary Systems Design workshop courses, stressing systems design methodology, forms an essential part of the program.

the descriton goes on and can be found here
"

http://www.systems.uwaterloo.ca/AboutUs/aboutus_whatissystems.htm"

]

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Narfed,

Try not to take offense from Ashereng, I'm sure he is trying to be helpful, otherwise he wouldn't be posting.

To use myself as an example-- I have a degree in Material Science. This means I had to study a fair bit of physics, chemistry and even biology. But I don't have the same depth of knowledge in those subjects that a physicist, chemist, or biologist has. So no one would hire me as an inorganic chemist, for instance.

So you may not have the required education to do many Mech Eng jobs. But that's okay, because you don't want those jobs, otherwise you would have gotten a Mech Eng degree.

As to the best career path for a systems engineer, it sounds like the best advice you've gotten is to look in aerospace and defense.

 

[Ashereng]

Narfed,

I apologise for offending. It was not intened.

Your OP asked "what is the career path to becoming a systems design engineer". It is hard to answer that if one does not understand the definition of a "systems design engineer". I am merely trying to understand what that term means.

As the many posts have indicated, it seems that "system design" engineer is mostly used in aerospace and defense industries, although others have alluded to a/c, industrial and others. I am merely confused as to what your discipline encompasses.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[UNLengineer]

I agree with Asher, without trying to downplay systems engineering, it is unclear to most people what exactly systems enginering entails, not that it is any less of a discipline than any other.

What classes in particular did you take? I know that as a Chemical engineer, I had to take a couple of MechE and EE courses, but not nearly enough to say I have as an indepth knowledge of EE as my EE roomate.

 

[GregLocock]

Systems engineering is

A conceptual framework that

-is supported by a body of knowledge and tools

-partitions the system into manageable parts

-concentrates on interfaces between parts

-cascades requirements to subsystems

-ensures verification of requirements

A systems engineer typically coordinates the design of many sub-systems and finds the best way to assign the performance and functionality of each sub-system so as to maximise the benefit to the customer at minimum cost (defined various ways), while allowing the subsystem designers maximum freedom to explore cost-effective solutions within the constraints imposed by the overall design. (I just made that up)

Typically a systems engineer will work for a systems integrator (such as a modern car company) rather than the susbsystem supplier (eg the A/C manufacturer)

Here endeth the lesson.

In some ways the SE represents the customer's voice. As such he often gets involved with negotiations with the customer, which is why it tends to be a senior position. The SEs I have know have tended to be the ones who nail down the specs, deliverables, and technologies.




Cheers

Greg Locock

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[Zapster]

I am curious too. In the USA is there an ABET accredited system engineering program? Is there a similar accreditation organization in Canada that recognizes system engineering as an accredited program? If so, what is the accreditation organization in Canada? Does it help you get a P.Eng. license with this degree? If you want to get a P.E. license in the USA, what one do you get? Systems PE?

 

[GregLocock]

SE tends to be used in non-PE engineering - aerospace, electronics and automotive.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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[PSE]

Narfed,

Where I work, systems engineers fall pretty much in the line that Greg Locock outlines. They work up front with marketing and the customer to determine the customer's needs/wants and then translate them into design requirements. From that point they work with each affected discipline on developing, validating and integrating the work into a product.

The work requires a broad range of knowledge and the ability to pick up on nuances, interrelationships and details quickly. Not everyone can do this well and it tends to be a senior level position. After all, having to spend time training a systems engineer on certain aspects of the technology used in a new product tends to bode ill for success and timeliness of completion.

A good systems engineer, like a good project manager, can be the difference between life and death of a new product.

Regards,

 

[KENAT]

In many places systems engineers and project managers seem to overlap. Systems engineers tend to be a little more technical and project managers a little more financial but similar idea.

Gregs definition is great, from my limited experience systems endgineering seems to be getting the right people from different specializations to work together/talk to each other while understanding enough about each specialization to translate both between specializations and for commercial/business/customer types.

 

[tripleZ]

My experience with systems engineering, at least in the States, is that it is often lumped together with industrial engineering. A lot of the ABET IE programs in the US focus on adding systems courses to the list of graduation requirements. Hence some schools will have Industrial & Systems engineering departments vs. Industrial engineering departments.

I agree with Greg: I don't know a lot of systems or industrial PEs. Mechanical/electrical/civil, now that's another story.

Narfed, don't take too much offense. I spent most of my undergrad being an "imagineer" and an ISE: I Suck at Engineering. Being classified as a generalist isn't really that bad when you think about it. Can you adequately design engines? Probably not as well as some MEs. Same goes for the materials science fields, etc. But, do you know enough to integrate the knowledge of each of those specialties, manufacture a product in a cost-efficient manner, and market it to the public? This is likely where you'll focus your efforts.

I'm a youngster in the field of powdered metal. I'm not a metallurgist and I'm not a ME (both of which are desirable). However, I know enough metallurgy to develop my customer's products, enough knowledge of stresses/strains/elongation to design tooling, and enough manufacturing knowledge to know how to set up the line to make a profitable project. If I run into a problem I can't figure out, that's when I seek the help of a specialist within my company. Thankfully it hasn't happened much so far. I get to meet with customers, discuss parts, suggest design changes, buy equipment, etc. The advantage is that I'm not pidgeon-holing myself into a specific industry. You have the ability to learn from a breadth of disciplines and evolve as the market does.

Being a generalist ain't half bad if you can take the digs from your fellow engineers. Just learn to grin and roll with the punches.

 

[moltenmetal]

Tropx: you forgot to mention the significant contribution systems design engineering provided to U of Waterloo: a much larger fraction of really attractive young women than in any of the other engineering faculties! It was an inspirational and moderating influence on to the engineering faculty for that reason alone! Not to mention a source of the occasional interesting, lightweight technical elective ("bird course" if you will).

As to what Syssies actually do when they graduate, you'd have to ask somebody who has worked with one- I've never seen one "in practice". Suspect that a significant fraction of them end up absorbed by the general "business" culture/industry out there. They find jobs where the employers are looking for good analysis and communication skills rather than a particular technical skillset. That's pretty much the vision that many within the profession have for us anyway- engineering is supposedly "the new liberal arts education" rather than being a program of professional training. Makes me sick to my stomach, really.

There's nothing wrong with being a generalist- in fact it's very desirable- but you need to have some saleable skills to be considered an engineer in my books. It's OK to be a "jack of all trades" as long as you have a reasonable background so you can master at least one!

 

[elguero]

I think a systems engineer is a government bureaucrat who is supposed to "see the big picture," but in reality is a diletante who has learned some psychobable. Generally smart enough to stop progress, but can never help move things forward.

In a meeting with DOE at Fernald, Ohio twenty years ago, a bunch of us chemical and metallurgical engineers were debating how to make a separation of solids from liquids -- whether to filter or centrifuge. One of the government managers (a Ph.D.) killed all meaningful discussion by saying: "Well I can see we need a systems approach here."

 

[kontiki99]

If you’re going to build the next generation air traffic management system I think you want to take a systems engineering approach. Likewise with a multi-theatre guided missile weapons platform.

The question I have always had with Systems Engineering (SE) and Industrial Engineering (IE) is how do they break in? No sane plant manager would turn over his assembly line to a college graduate that has never held a full time job in industry before.

The benefit I saw in the six sigma programs was that they seemed to take people familiar with the operation, tasks, and environment to give them efficiency tools and empowered them to make changes.

I see IE and SE educational programs as being valuable for the senior technical track person, maybe at the Masters level.

I admit to not knowing enough much about entry level IE or SE oportunities.

 

[tripleZ]

How do entry level IEs and SEs start? In my field, usually as Process Engineers. We're basically setup into Product and Process lines. Product engineers bring on the new parts and develop the process. Sometimes it's in depth if time permits. Other times it's enough to just get the product launched before moving on to the next. After PPAP is complete, your Process engineer generally starts to take over management of the line. His job is to meet/exceed rates, perform capability studies to see if the process can be opened up, etc. The Product engineer is always around as a customer contact (for the initial stages) until the Process engineer learns enough about the product.

When I started, it was a little different. We were short-handed so I had a product line dumped on me. It was the red-headed step-child line nobody wanted to touch with a 10-foot cattle prod. Luckily I had some successes and learned a lot in the interim.

Anyways, if a company is properly setup, a fledgling IE or SE always has a mentor to work with until he/she gains enough experience.