Tell the truth or disguise? 3

[MedicineEng]

Imagine this hypothesis:
You live in an area with a big shortage of a particular resource, for instance engineers.
You work with a very good engineer with whom, not being exactly your friend, you maintain a cordial relationship.
One day you receive a call from a headhunter trying to get references from this engineer to take him to another job.
What would you do:

-You tell the truth and tell him that he is a very good engineer and risk that he will leave the company leaving a really bad situation to be solved;

-"Protect" the company and paint a "darker" picture in order to have the headhunter loosing its interest?

 

[MedicineEng]

My friends:
It seems that some of you are taking this too personal. As I already said this is completely hypothetical.
I never refered "lying" but as we all know there are several ways to tell the truth.
And all your answers only confirm what I already knew: that is why most politians are not engineers... There are things that we don't do, even if it is against our immediate interest.

 

[jmw]

OK, in your new scenario I'd say you are going to get creamed whatever happens.
You can either give a positive reference or decline, for the reasons others have suggested.
You paint such a picture of this company that as fast as we suggest asking your boss for extra money, a junior to delegate your simple stuff to etc. you're going to tell us, reasonably enough, that the bosses won't do this.
In the end you will be looking at either an 80 hour workload for a poor 40 hour salary, or a job stacking shelves in the supermarket.

What else can we tell you? Life isn't fair? That's a given.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Ashereng]

I always tell the truth.

As an engineer, wansn't there something in the ethics training that we are supposed to always tell the truth? I can't quite remember - might have missed that class.

Anyhoot. Go to your colleague, and ask him if he gave your name as a refernce (some headhunters will ask for a reference even if you were not listed).

If he did give your name as a reference, then you can deal with the headhunter as you wish.

If he did not give your name as a reference, then I would answer the headhunter with "I talked to so and so and he did not give my name as a refence, and I decline your invitation." or the standard "Our company has a policy of only referring all requests for references to the HR department."

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[mechmama]

Oddly enough, almost the exact situation happened to me yesterday. I was sitting at my desk, minding my own business when a former boss (not a headhunter), called about a guy from my company who had applied at his company. This guy is not a friend, but is someone I say hello to and chat with occasionally.

My reaction was to put the guy first. I figured he must have a good reason for needing to get a different gig. Talking with the former boss, I found out he wanted to come on as contract, so I believe money was the motivation. I figure, it's my job to tell the truth about the applicant, and it's my superiors' problem to figure out how to keep our companies from trading engineers all the time. Plus, it's different strokes for different folks. . .if the guy isn't satisfied here, no point and prolonging the relationship for both parties.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

MedicneEng ... I don't think anyone's taking this personally or accusing you directly. At least I hope not. You made it quite clear in your opening statement that this was a hypothetical situation.

Imagine this hypothesis:

The personal "feel" comes from the use of the term "you" in the replies which, btw, was initiated by the original question;

You live in an area ...
You work with ...
... you maintain ...
... you receive a call
What would b[]you[/b] do:

-You tell the truth ...

It's just easier to speak in familiar terms when discussing hypotheticals.

 

[SylvestreW]

"Let's imagine that you know that if this engineer leaves to another company his work will go into your desk and in the end it will be you to make double work (at least until they find another engineer).Let's say also that you are above 50 and despite the market is hot for engineers, as we all know, it is much more difficult for a professional above 50 to get another work when compared with one of 35.
In this case, it would be also in your self-interest to retain the engineer in the company, wouldn't you agree? "

No!
In this scenario you are hurting someone else for your selfish needs. That's wrong no matter what.
The other person isn't leaving to spite you and make you work harder, he's leaving because there's a better opportunity elsewhere.

If the additional work were too difficult to deal with, you make a stand to the company, not hurt someone else's chances for change.

 

[TheTick]

"Imagine a hypothesis:" is on the same shelf with "I have a friend with a problem...".

 

[HgTX]

Then there's the opposite side--giving a good review of a bad worker in the hopes that someone will take that worker off your hands.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[jmw]

Has any one else noticed (prompted by HgTX's comment) that in this "life isn't fair" world that the worse someone is, be he idler, backstabber, useless lump, Machiavellian intriguer, brownnoser or whatever, the less likely he/she is to be fired, ever. The more likely they are to be promoted, to be able to find a new job at even better money....
The biggest curses in this world are to be clever, to be good at what you do and most damming (especially when spoken by one of the opposite sex) a "nice guy/gal".
Damn.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MikeHalloran]

Honesty is the worst curse.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[IRstuff]

If this is truly hypothetical, what's the point of the question? I can't see that anyone would openly admit to being unethical.



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MedicineEng]

The point of the question is to assess if in case where self-interest and ethical comes into conflict, as is this case, what prevails.
I am glad to conclude that I am not alone in my original thought.
My position would be similar to most of you guys: decline unless the reference had been given with my authorization.

 

[IRstuff]

An artificial example yields artificial results.

A more realistic scenario might be:

Should you hide a particular medical condition at the start of a new job, since the company's insurance carrier is known to deny coverage for patients with that condition if it's pre-existing.


TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MedicineEng]

IRStuff:
I tend to agree with you.
Your cenario is much more ethics challenging.
Let's hear the others. What would you do?

 

[epoisses]

I doubt hiding the condition and have it appear out of nowhere later on would have a reasonable chance of success, but apart from that, yes I would seriously consider hiding it.

OK kill me now guys for not being ethical, but I don't find it ethical to begin with for a company insurance to not cover people with a certain condition. For me it is de facto discrimination on the job market.

Keep in mind also that in my country everyone has a state health insurance so this scenario for me sounds like another planet.

 

[jmw]

A colleague in our US office was offered every much better job with another company and handed his notice in. Before he had worked his notice out his wife was diagnosed with a serious illness.
That meant that under the health plan at his new job she would not be covered but as a previously undiagnosed illness, his existing health care plan did.

He was fortunate that he was allowed to withdraw his notice. Some may think that a natural course of events but suppose he was unable to withdraw his notice (some of us might not be surprised at such an action), could he or should he try and hide this from his new employers?

For me the action he took was not only ethical but the right choice from a practical viewpoint. The risks attendant on an attempt at fraud far outweighed any possible benefits.
However, it is ever a surprise to me that some people will not hesitate to steal or cheat for a few bucks when the risk is they gain a criminal record. I guess some people think they can get away with it and some possibly do but is it worth the risk?

The risk is discovery and not only the loss of health care but the loss of his job and even a criminal prosecution for fraud.
Set against that he can have the health care cover but must remain in the less well paid job; worse, of course, because his employers know he has given his hostage to fortune and is now completely under their control.... better if he had been able to keet the reason for withdrawing his notice a secret from his employer.
It is a tough old world.

Apart from that, I can understand somewhat Epoisses viewpoint. It seems to me that the US health care system is one of the most iniquitous on the planet (unless you live where there is none at all to speak of) and one tends to have sympathy with the US jurors who award such huge punitive damages in any cases they can involving the health care providers, insurers or drugs companies. At some level the abuses of the system by the providers reach a point where one justifies confounding them. The only way bad laws/systems get repealed is when they are resisted strongly enough or flouted blatantly enough that action is taken.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TheTick]

In Wisconsin, the first paragraph would be an illegal scenario. If insurance coverage is continuous, then the condition would not be "preexisting". It was coverred by one insurance company when discovered, and the next insurance company is obligated to continue coverage.

 

[kchayfie]

Admittedly the UK private health insurance market is completely different to the set up in the US but my company recently decided to switch carriers for our health insurance. The stuff that I have seen my doctor about since I started with this company are now deemed "pre-existing" conditions since they were diagnosed before my employers joined the new insurance scheme.

It doesn't bother me because we have the NHS to fall back on and there is nothing expensive in the treatment of the problems diagnosed but the non-continuous nature of the cover seems like something of a scam to me.

 

[Pud]

In the UK, (and I am a business owner), the best scenario regarding references is not to give one, apart from verifiable data such as timekeeping/absenteeism etc.

Otherwise you can be 'done' for misrepresentation of the facts.

I have worked for companies who's company policy was not to give references of any sort.

Also I do not talk on the 'phone to prospective employers of ex staff, just in case they are being recorded!!

Cheers

Harry

 

[kontiki99]

Actually,

You really have no idea who has called you asking about this other person or why. Investigators and snoops sometimes pretext to obtain information about others for whatever reason.

As a matter of ensuring the privacy of others, it's probably best not to disclose anything unless they asked you to be a reference ahead of time.