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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
That's a lot of capacity that's been lost. Must admit being Aberdonian we always associate Texas with hot and humid... Not snow storms.
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Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up. 67
- Thread starter Alistair_Heaton
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LittleInch
Petroleum
These "once in a lifetime" events are coming a lot more frequent than that.
This goes back to the issue of investment in something (blade anti icing) that's only needed for a few days every 5 years.
A bit like snow clearing equipment at Heathrow a few years ago when it shut for 3 days. THEN they bought a load of gear which now sits rusting on one of the aprons and not used.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
This goes back to the issue of investment in something (blade anti icing) that's only needed for a few days every 5 years.
A bit like snow clearing equipment at Heathrow a few years ago when it shut for 3 days. THEN they bought a load of gear which now sits rusting on one of the aprons and not used.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
yep and when they do need it then it breaks down after 12 hours.
Where as in Arlanda and Helsinki They start doing work ups and practising in October.
And the gear they use makes the UK stuff look like toys. Its more open pit mining size when you get up close to it.
Plus they don't seem to bother with speed limits like the UK. When the ploughs hit the runway they are doing 50 km/hr UK airside speed limit of 15mph is applied in the UK.
Back to the windfarms though an out of balance set of blades with ice on them must be a scary sight. I have only seen one turbine self destruct and I wouldn't like to be anywhere near it.
Where as in Arlanda and Helsinki They start doing work ups and practising in October.
And the gear they use makes the UK stuff look like toys. Its more open pit mining size when you get up close to it.
Plus they don't seem to bother with speed limits like the UK. When the ploughs hit the runway they are doing 50 km/hr UK airside speed limit of 15mph is applied in the UK.
Back to the windfarms though an out of balance set of blades with ice on them must be a scary sight. I have only seen one turbine self destruct and I wouldn't like to be anywhere near it.
JayMaechtlen
Industrial
Then there are additional issues like a refinery shutdown -
The largest oil refinery in the United States, in Port Arthur, is shutting down due to the freezing weather.
The refinery's operator, Motiva Enterprises, said in a statement that "unprecedented freezing temperatures necessitated safely and methodically shutting down our Port Arthur Manufacturing Complex."
Jay Maechtlen
The largest oil refinery in the United States, in Port Arthur, is shutting down due to the freezing weather.
The refinery's operator, Motiva Enterprises, said in a statement that "unprecedented freezing temperatures necessitated safely and methodically shutting down our Port Arthur Manufacturing Complex."
Jay Maechtlen
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
At least they just it down and didn't try to push the limits. Maybe cooperate management are learning to listen to the engineers not the accountants and there bonuses.
This is a rare weather event, according to reports are the previous similar event was more than 30 years ago. It is not just some wind turbines off line, but a number of coal and natural gas plants tripped off line. These power plants that are not designed for freezing conditions, and when exposed to extended serious sub freezing conditions, become unpredictable.
Texas has limited capacity to import power from the south west power pool (eastern interconnect) and even more limited options to the western interconnect one result was that in many locations rolling blackouts are reportedly no longer rolling.
Trouble has also been reported to spill into Mexico " Natural gas shortage in Texas causes blackout in Northern Mexico February 16, 2021"
"Millions Without Power In Texas, Northern Mexico As Blackouts And Bitter Cold Continue February 16, 20214:33 AM ET"
Texas has limited capacity to import power from the south west power pool (eastern interconnect) and even more limited options to the western interconnect one result was that in many locations rolling blackouts are reportedly no longer rolling.
Trouble has also been reported to spill into Mexico " Natural gas shortage in Texas causes blackout in Northern Mexico February 16, 2021"
"Millions Without Power In Texas, Northern Mexico As Blackouts And Bitter Cold Continue February 16, 20214:33 AM ET"
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Freezing rain is utterly hellish to deal with
And when it melts floods will be a likely issue.
And when it melts floods will be a likely issue.
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They had a similar reduction in elec power in Texas in 2016, due to freezing of small exterior water pipes at some coal fired plants that were on standby. The plants could not restart to meet the increased demand due to frozen pipes, caused by inadequate freeeze protection. I suppose the original design assumption was the plant would be based loaded and that constant flow in the pipes would prevent freezing.The new mode of operation ( 2 shift) caused by increased reliance on wind energy violated a design assumption. Design assumptions are the cause of a lot of real life problems.
The increased use of wind energy imposes other problems in the electrical power supply system, again demonstrated in Texas ERCOT 10 yrs ago. The wind turbines have a max permitted operating wind speed of 55 mph, and as soon as that speed is reached, they disconnect to avoid overspeed. When you have thousands of wind turbines on a large west texas wind farm shut down at the same time due to a wind storm, it caused a 1.5 GWe loss of power within 45 minutes, and that forced ERCOT to shutdown large industrial power consumers. Then the turbines restarted when the wind died down to 54.9999 mph, and that caused a surge in supply. Thkis led to the requirement to provide airspeed indicators at each farm , so the ISO can predict the wind turbine outage soon enough to start fast startup suppliers. This problem will become a nationwide problem if and when the UHVDC transmission lines are completed, connecting the central plains wind turbine farms to the 2 coasts.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
The increased use of wind energy imposes other problems in the electrical power supply system, again demonstrated in Texas ERCOT 10 yrs ago. The wind turbines have a max permitted operating wind speed of 55 mph, and as soon as that speed is reached, they disconnect to avoid overspeed. When you have thousands of wind turbines on a large west texas wind farm shut down at the same time due to a wind storm, it caused a 1.5 GWe loss of power within 45 minutes, and that forced ERCOT to shutdown large industrial power consumers. Then the turbines restarted when the wind died down to 54.9999 mph, and that caused a surge in supply. Thkis led to the requirement to provide airspeed indicators at each farm , so the ISO can predict the wind turbine outage soon enough to start fast startup suppliers. This problem will become a nationwide problem if and when the UHVDC transmission lines are completed, connecting the central plains wind turbine farms to the 2 coasts.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
They can usually sling off ice when running. The problem intensifies when they are forced to shut down in 35mph+ winds. Then the ice sticks, looses aerodynamics and won't start until its melted off. Where's that carburetor heat?
Design point breeze is usually for a wind speed of around 15mph.
Design point breeze is usually for a wind speed of around 15mph.
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Being Scottish I can tell you it won't make the slightest bit of difference IFRs. They will be more than happy living in caves if it means they are independent if they are anything like Scotland and the SNP.
LittleInch
Petroleum
"due to freezing of small exterior water pipes "
It's always the small things that bite your in the arse and kill you.....
The switchover to condensing boilers in the UK hit a big hitch few years ago when all the condensate drains that people had put in far longer and more exposed than they should all started to freeze up in a rare blast of freezing weather that lasted a few days. Domestic boilers (furnaces) were shutting down because they had too much water inside. Cue pictures of freezing families trying to thaw out plastic pipes using kettles and such like.
Whilst some had been lagged, very few were het traced and it was the long period of very cold weather which did for them.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
It's always the small things that bite your in the arse and kill you.....
The switchover to condensing boilers in the UK hit a big hitch few years ago when all the condensate drains that people had put in far longer and more exposed than they should all started to freeze up in a rare blast of freezing weather that lasted a few days. Domestic boilers (furnaces) were shutting down because they had too much water inside. Cue pictures of freezing families trying to thaw out plastic pipes using kettles and such like.
Whilst some had been lagged, very few were het traced and it was the long period of very cold weather which did for them.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
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This article provides some context to the contribution of wind power to the issues in Texas:
According to the article, the total power generation from wind farms yesterday was apparently greater than what had been planned for during that time period.
According to the article, the total power generation from wind farms yesterday was apparently greater than what had been planned for during that time period.
Significant offset between projected demand and actual.
Makes for expensive power if available
Makes for expensive power if available
ACtrafficengr
Civil/Environmental
On the demand side, electric residential heat is common in south Texas. When demand is rising and supply is falling, you have to expect problems.
My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5
Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. -
My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5
Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. -
Beware this cold front is heading East around the globe. After New England, where will it hit next?
Texas does have a few DC ties to other states, but mostly to SPP which had it's own problems at the same time.
This just shows some of the weaknesses in the systems, and is anyone going to take steps to fix it?
Lots of coal still goes to Texas, so I don't see how it could be a fuel problem.
Yes gas wells tend to be wet, so they can freeze up, if not well heat traced. Which I suppose is the case. Rural electric is costly, so diesel generators likely are the thing, but those may not start in the cold.
Texas does have a few DC ties to other states, but mostly to SPP which had it's own problems at the same time.
This just shows some of the weaknesses in the systems, and is anyone going to take steps to fix it?
Lots of coal still goes to Texas, so I don't see how it could be a fuel problem.
Yes gas wells tend to be wet, so they can freeze up, if not well heat traced. Which I suppose is the case. Rural electric is costly, so diesel generators likely are the thing, but those may not start in the cold.
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