The Civil Engineer in Society: Merit v Profile 19

[tuto]

Dear fellow engineers,

We all know how important is the role of the civil engineer in society by providing and maintaining its infrastructure.

However I believe most of you share my concern that the profile of civil engineering as a profession is rather low (world wide).

What do you think it can be done to raise the civil engineer's profile in society?

 

[ACtrafficengr]

I think one way that lawyers and doctors got such high profiles is through Hollywood. Shows like Matlock, Quincy, M.D., ER, LA Law, etc. etc. etc.

The closest I can think of for our profession would be McGyver, which was entertaining, but not quite engineering.

I heard somewhere that someone is promoting s TV show concept along the lines of "LA Engineer," but no studio has bought in yet. If it were done well, I'd watch it. After all, the reality of being a lawyer is much less exciting than the law shows.

Or, how about having a forensic engineer testify in court a few times? Then, if it goes over well, spin it off into a new show? If it were up to me, I'd make the main character the son or daughter of Jack Klugman's character, and call it "Quincy, P.E."

 

I am a recent graduate from an ABET accredited Civil Engineering program. I have worked in the world of private consulting for approximately 7 months up to this point. While attending school, I worked at a law firm in order to make ends meet (5 years). This gives me the unique ability to compare the two professions with extensive personal experience rather than knowledge through heresay or jokes.

The fact that entry level law associates make more money than senior engineers and project managers is not only wrong but it sets a very dangerous precedent. I am fairly certain that we as a society could survive without lawyers but, coversely, there may be a problem if people stop pursuing engineering as a profession. It is frightening to me that lawyers make so much more than engineers but what is more frightening to me is that in many cases an engineer could make just as much money working as a janitor for a government agency. This creates an interesting problem in the future for the engineering profession: People pursuing careers at a higher wage than engineering jobs with less stress and less technical liability (i.e. LAW) or people pursuing careers at the same wage with NO STRESS and NO TECHNICAL LIABILITY (i.e. sweeping floors at the local fed building. NOTE the retirement benefit here boys and girls). I do realize that it is not all about money but please FIGHT FOR A WAGE THAT IS AT LEAST IN THE BALLPARK FOR THE JOB YOU DO.

Also, Engineering is a very male dominated field where the "grin and bear it" attitude is very prominent, swallow your pride and cry for higher wages. Do not cry to your boss so much as cry to politicians and people who are not in the profession because if you are crying to your boss and you are in the profession, he/she is most likely underpaid, you are most likely "PREACHING TO THE CHOIR".

It begins with a curriculum that is absurd as compared to others. The work is piled on at a ridiculous rate. we grin and bear it and then we enter the work place and it happens all over again. WE LET THIS HAPPEN!

Some lawyers that I had worked with held undergraduate degrees in engineering. They suggested to me that I attend law school after I was through with the engineering curriculum, they said "If you made it through an engineering curriculum, law school will be a joke!" I am seriously contemplating this suggestion.

These are only a few of my thoughts........ Remeber and remind people......

DOCTORS BURY THEIR PATIENTS ONE BY ONE, ENGINEERS BURY THEM BY THE DOZEN!

 

[ACtrafficengr]

Dear visitor,

We are not alone, you know. You could replace "engineer" in your post with several other professions and it would be equally valid. Nurses and teachers come to mind.

A friend of mine told me most new teachers leave the profession within 5 years. He lasted 3. Why? 12 hour days and paltry pay. He was required to be at the school 2 hrs before the day started, and stay 2 hrs after. That was rarely enough time to get his grading and lesson plans done.

At a recent traffic safety conference I attended, there was talk of an alliance between engineers and emergency room nurses. Makes sense to me. Engineers and math and science teachers is another natural combination.

Maybe by working together, we can help each other get the respect we deserve.

 

[Art]

Once the Engineer has developed a solution to a problem, she/he will need to thoroughly convince the client that the proposed solution is the best one. Upon attaining this ability, the Engineer's professionalism, communication skills, leaderhip skills, and status will also improve.

It is important to note that the client must become convinced on her/his terms, not the Engineer's.

Art

 

[idly123]

well to add more...

C common sense
I Intellect
V visualisation
I Imagination
L Logic

an engineer who rightly possess these would be sucessful.
regds Raj

 

[ngneer]

Things will never change. This argument rolls along with no answers. If engineers want more money, make it harder to be an engineer. Last time I checked a person cannot practice law or medicine without the required degree. Don't worry, I'm sure you people complaining about the masters degree will be grandfathered. I'm tired of that argument about the best engineer I ever knew never went to school. That should be illegal. If I worked in a law firm for several years I'm sure I could do what a lawyer does, but I can't. I don't have a law degree. I'm also glad some are getting some enjoyment from civil engr. I also enjoy hearing about a person with a 2 year degree in networking is making more than a P.E. with 15 years of experience (or how about an entry level nurse making $57k per year and having full-tuition for graduate level work paid as well as any undergrad. student loans). What should be done = to start, engineering work must be performed by a licenesed engineer (licensed engineer must have a masters at minimum). Also for ASCE, please stop crying about a shortage of engineers. Will more people doing what we can do help salaries?

 

[gibbycu]

Just a general comment to all the structural engineerings complaining about recognition. Let's not forget about all those geotechnical engineers that designed foundations which hold up the structural engineers designs. Even though you can't see fruits of the geotech's work, doesn't mean its not as amazing as any structural design. Take a second to think of they type of materials the geotech has to work with, heterogeneous soils behaving non-linearly with fluctuating water levels with random massive shaking of the ground, and that's only after hoping that the geotech's experience will allow them to assume they know what's really under the site from only a few small 6" holes. We deal with not getting much attention from the general public but we wouldn't mind hearing a little recognition from our fellow civil engineers.

I hope noone takes this the wrong way. I agree with most of you. Civil engineers have made the world as we know it possible. Just think, if humans want to inhabit any remote place including other planets, who are going to be the most important people needed, civil engineers not architects

 

[RDK]

I always find that the most satisfying thing being a civil engineer is the view of a completed project in my rear view mirror as I leave the site for the last time. There is nothing more satisfying in the job, at least to me, than to have completed a project, turned it over to those who are going to make use of it and having the knowledge that I had a significant role in making this project a reality. (And nothing more exciting than the start up of the next project).

I work in construction and at the completion of a project commissioning I then hand over the completed project to the users and leave the site. Absent any warranty problems I seldom return to the site unless a follow up project happens or there is something that I need (or want ) to know about some aspect of the project.

I go from being the head cheese on a site to just another visitor, which suits me just fine.

The goal of anyone involved in infrastructure work, be it new construction or ongoing maintenance and operation should be to be invisible to the end user. The users should be isolated from the process of construction and maintenance and simply have a usable facility for their uninterrupted use and enjoyment.

I have worked with individuals who had a high need for recognition. They missed the point that construction is a team effort. They made every simple problem a major issue and positioned themselves in such a manner that their personal involvement was the only way to resolve the issue. The phrase pole vaulting over mouse droppings best describes their methods.

The result was a job site where no one would bring forward problems, suggest solutions nor have any degree of trust that everyone would work towards the goal of completing the project successfully. The two worst offenders are at the top of my “never work with again if possible” list.

Unfortunately some owners think that all contractors are out to do a bad job and take them for as much money as possible for as little work as possible and that the only way to manage a contractor is with an iron fist. These types will always find some work.

If you are in any branch of engineering for the personal recognition then you are probably in the wrong profession. I am more concerned with my reputation amongst my peers, those who actually know my work than with anyone else.

On a more global perspective, the profile of the profession does need to be raised if only to attract fresh talent. In my graduating class of about 200 over 80 were civil engineers. Now with the same size graduating classes there are generally less than 20 civil engineers. My local association is predicting a sever shortage of civil engineers as the last of the boomers retire in 10 or so years.

We need to encourage civil engineering both in the high schools and in the first year common curriculum classes of engineering schools. We should promote the high degree of job satisfaction that comes from civil engineering and seeing the results of one’s efforts being used in a manner that benefits society.

I agree that civil is not seen as sexy or exciting as computers but 1,000 years from now nobody will be able to see the electrons in a computer circuit, but some of the projects that I have worked on will still be in evidence (if not in actual use, witness the Roman aqueducts and roads).

Civil is the most permanent branch of engineering.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[elminer]

What a wonderful series of posts on a subject that sorely needs discussing. I am in agreement with much of what has been discussed.

From my point of view, that of being a civil engineer for over 30 years, what is needed most is to educate the general public about our professionalism.

Unfortunately, many of us in the general civil/site community lack respectability in the eyes of the public because we work for "Developers", who as "everyone knows, are out to rape the land and screw the municipality". In the public's eyes, the few developers who do have that attitude damage the reputations all the others and the civil engineers who work for them. A lack of trust is generated.

I do work that gets reviewed by non-engineers or sub-professional engineers who delight in telling me how I should design something. Then in order to overcome that lack of trust and get approval for my Client's project from the public boards, I end up having to engineer a non professional's design so that it functions safely and effectively.

In other cases, because of the lack of trust, the municipality has its own standard designs, whose use is required. This relegates the civil engineering design professional to little more than a technician.

All of this can be countered, I believe, by educating the general public about the professionalism, high standards of conduct and trustworthyness of professional engineers.

I have seen some movement in that direction from some of our professional societies, but unfortunately the proponents have not been able to "speak the same language" as the general public, and therefore, their message is less than effective.

I have been a member of Toastmasters for several years now and have started to get away from the engineering and technical jargon when talking to the public. I recommend that those who want to improve our image and standing in the eyes of the public, learn to "speak the same Language".

Ed (northeast US)

 

[dpa]

I would like to go back to the comments about the humanities. I feel that I am more well rounded by having gotten a history degree (about 12 years before my CE degree). However I do agree wholeheartedly with the jokes about "You want fries with that?"

I think everyone should have some humanities background just for their own quality of life. When I worked as a civilian for the Navy I felt like I was the only engineer in the organization who could spell, not to mention write a well structured paragraph. (I can tell from the comments on this site that the situation is not that bad in private companies.) I also seemed to be the only guy who could give a presentation thanks to the Army.

A good general background in arts and humanities may help to dispel the idea that all engineers are nerds. Some are, but I know one who was a cowboy and then a logger before getting his engineering degree. I myself was in Army Special Forces. We are definitely not nerds.

Rather than cut out the humanities I would like to see a "fifth year" made available or even mandatory. In the teaching profession they have a mandatory fifth year and I believe they can go to work for awhile and then return to finish the fifth year later. That would be great. I would love to go back to the University of Washington and take some of the courses I missed. Can't be done because they say they are overbooked. The continuing ed courses they offer are just not comprehensive or even difficult enough. A mandatory fifth year program would force them to let me back in. Work experience as a co-op student caused me to see the value of what the professors were talking about when I came back to school after my first six month stint in the co-op program. My grades and my understanding suddenly made a quantum leap. A fifth year (with actual letter grades) would do the same for most everyone. It could offer graduate level courses, even for those who have not formally been admitted to grad school. It also might make some of the guys who were more "relaxed" as undergrads become eligible for grad school by raising their GPA's.

I realize that after touting my BA degree I have written some run on paragraphs but we engineers are a busy lot.

Dave Adkins

 

[TJWATKINSPG]

I am not a P.E. there was a time in my life when I held all Civil engineers in contempt. As a prof. geologist I ran across a bunch of P.E's that practiced outside of their abilities. I once worked with a firm that had EE signing off on groundwater remediation plans. I was uncomfortable with that.
I deal often now with P.E's in the area of sinkhole research. In representing the insurance companies in lawsuits often hire structural P.Es; these are easy fodder. They make simple avoidable mistakes because they know foundation, they know code, they know stress modulus, they know more than I can ever know about their field. They don't know sinkhole stratigraphy. They think that organic material will not occur in the formation of a sink.
I know that engineers are for the most part very competent, the arrogance I meet is astounding. Last month in a town meeting the Civil Eng for a large E firm repeated twice that the small round lakes in Pinellas County Florida had nothing to do with sinkholes!

As a geologist I am allowed to practice in Fla, and S.C where I have demonstrated ability through competancy testing. I would not dream of making an opinion on (for example) California geology. I have read, studied and visited it but I just do not have enough experince in that field.

My present opinion of PE is based soley on each individual and their willingness to stay within what they know.
In my opinion the biggest enemy engineers have is yourselves. I do work for engineers. I do from time to time hire engineers, You as a group know that saftey would suffer greatly without engineers. The world MUST have you guys, so inspite of the poor opinion, keep on. The work you do can not and must not be done by mass opinion. The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude

 

[BobPE]

As a PE I have had the opportunity to work with a lot of PG's that sent in their 5 dollars and got their license, that field has a long way to go. In my opinion the biggest enemy PG's have is yourselves.

Sounds a lot like what you had to say...Hmmmm bickering amound the various professional disiplines is what is bringing us all down...

Know your role.....

BobPE

 

[TJWATKINSPG]

Ok when I did get a chance to re read that last post, I know why my english teacher did not give me A's. I can spell when I am alert. The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude