The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage 6

[spciesla]

http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...-the-science-and-engineering-shortage/284359/

Long article, but here are a couple of my favorite snippets.

"Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations."

"Labor markets for scientists and engineers also differ geographically. Employer demand is far higher in a few hothouse metropolitan areas than in the rest of the country, especially during boom periods. Moreover recruitment of domestic professionals to these regions may be more difficult than in others when would-be hires discover that the remuneration employers are offering does not come close to compensating for far higher housing and other costs."

 

[TheTick]

Many conclusions to be drawn...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/steve-jobs-sent-chilling-smiley-151353966.html

 

[KENAT]

Perhaps I'm not thinking it through but the part about not routinely cold calling employees of your competition I don't find as offensive.

However, the part where even if an employee of a competitor applies on their own initiative they won't be considered really disgusts me.

So much for 'do no evil'.

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[cranky108]

Is this like a non-compete agreement in reverse? It has a bright side, in that bad apples won't find a job after being fired (no puns intended).
It is also just bad for both companies to continue to snipe each others engineers. It's also good that we get orignal ideas from different companies that must compete in the marketplace.

It also means the movers and shakers must actually do something in order to move to the upper floor. I just hate big mouths that can't do anything get promoted.

Besides having two or more companies looking for the same type of engineers is a good way to look like a shortage when there isen't. A local shortage is not a national shortage. It just means the location dosen't attract that many engineers.

It may however depress wages in the local area, but as long as it is limited it isen't bad.

 

[KENAT]

Erm Cranky once they are fired they don't work for the competitor so the agreement presumably wouldn't apply.

Plus whose definition of bad apple?

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[cranky108]

KENAT, I guess you missed my point.

Bad apples, engineers that don't know there stuff, cheat, lie, steal, you know the type.

 

[beej67]

And maybe students should be asking for stats on former grads ability to find a job.

There was actually a successful class action lawsuit against a San Francisco based culinary arts school recently based on the fact that they were cooking the books with their job placement statistics.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[KENAT]

I didn't miss your point at all Cranky - but you may have missed mine.

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[cranky108]

At least in the industry I am in there is little special business knoledge that can be taken from one company to another. However in the manufacturing of the products we use, it is apperent that what some company designs new is protected for a number of years, then seems to transition into the products that the other companies use. The exception would be the copy righted products. So when we see a product we like, from a company that we don't, we just have to wait until it is adopted industry wide.

Basicly ideas are transportable, company managment practicace is not. We don't buy much from company A because there sales methods make there sales people seem like A-------. We buy from company B because there company practice makes it easy to work with them.

In the case of two technology companies, a no call practice may make since because they may want there products to be different from each other. Unlike the industry I work in, where products that are simular become somewhat interchangable, so companies must compete on frendleness.

The other issue is when products are easyer to use in an industry where there is a shortage of qualified engineers, it allows more of the design to be completed by copy and paste, and less by special design.
By qualified I mean within there capability to properly design the application.

So apperent to me the so called shortage of engineers is the ability to contain costs of employment. And if there truly was a shortage of engineers, there would still be a few who could not find jobs for reasons other than there degree.

 

[KENAT]

Apparently if you get high enough up the chain the non compete agreements may not apply:

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20140416&id=17532947

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[JohnRBaker]

Like most things in America today, if you're rich enough, you don't have to put up with what the masses do, like paying your taxes or being subject to laws.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[cranky108]

Are you refering to our inperial leaders? You could get jail time for talking like that.

It should irritate most of us the more than double standards we have. And I believe it is intential to attempt to bring down the cost or what has to be paid to staff the needed engineers.
We see the same thing happening in the medical industry. The goverment is coluding to reduce the cost of medical care by compressing pay of doctors.
It almost looks like some socialest plot. Even more when you see a number of mismanged things that are reducing food production in this country. And enviromental laws that restrict energy production, or use.

Makes you wonder if something political is happening, like a fundumental change in our goverment.

 

[JohnRBaker]

NO, I was thinking more along the lines of the oligarchy that the Supreme Court has been laying the groundwork for these past several years, basically turning the idea of "We the People" into a farce. At one end of the spectrum you have organizations like ALEC writing model legislation for Republican controlled state legislatures covering everything from making it harder to vote to 'stand your ground' laws to nullification of federal laws by the states, while at the other end the 1% has been told that they're now allowed to 'buy' as many elected officials as it takes to assure that only their needs will be given consideration in the Halls of Congress.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[KENAT]

Paying a COO $58,000,000 for doing a bad job and so being fired is part of a Socialist plot?

Man Socialism really must mean something here in the US than it did back in Blighty.

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[Gymmeh]

I still don't get the business sense of some of the severance packages for the board of directors...Its seams like they would have some built in scheme to discourage them from being absolutely terrible at there job. For alot less money i am sure they could have found someone that could do a better job.

 

[JohnRBaker]

It's primarily the result of CEO's and COO's serving on the Boards of Directors of other American corporations creating what's known as 'Interlocking Boards of Directors'. And as a result, this has developed into a "You scratch my back, I'll scratch your back" corporate mentality in this country.

While there has been research over the years into what has been happening...

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/articles/235/

...and while it seems pretty obvious to most people once they know the facts, what with the aforementioned recent Supreme Court rulings, if you honestly think that anything is going to be done about this, by Congress or even in the courts, you've got another think coming.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[rconnor]

KENANT, I’m laughing through my face-palm because it’s so unfortunately accurate. What’s worse is that they flip back and forth between calling it socialist and fascist…because apparently those are the same thing, I guess.

JohnRBaker, yes, oligarchy is the proper term. The authors of the paper conclude:

The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence.

 

[cranky108]

John, we seem to have differing views of what this goverment is, but it appears we both agree there's something wrong with it.
rconnor, I think it is called fascist, because socialist is goverment(everyone owns)everything, where fascist is goverment controls everything without owning it.

Either way the goverment is so large they believe they can trample on the peoples rights without recourse. And worse, they have so many laws they can selectively prosecute people which ever laws the goverment sees fit. Example: prosecute a rancher in Nevada, but not the millions of illegals that are in this country (and the money the hugh display of force).

If I was a better lier I would be in politics myself. That's apperently where the money is.

 

[KENAT]

Godwin's Law Alert

rconner

Well the NAZI's were technically National Socialists, Mussolini's bunch were the actual fascists.

They probably actually mean some variation on Authoritarian or Totalitarian or some such but that's' probably too nuanced for many in the target audience where as saying Fascist invokes comparisons with WW II era Germany and it's leader - even if technically incorrect.

(By the way my last line should have been "Man Socialism really must mean something different here in the US than it did back in Blighty." but I think you got my point.)

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[urgross]

Rcoonor,

I believe that "plutocracy" would be the proper pejorative. The same thing as the golden rule: "he who has the gold makes the rule". Scatocracy might be a more fitting term for government by lawyers.

 

[cranky108]

In our case it is "He who has the biggest mouth, makes the rules". Most of the current political types did not start out with the gold. They recieved it in kick-backs.

Hitler also started by soap-boxing in the streets to who ever would lissen.