The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage 6

[spciesla]

http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...-the-science-and-engineering-shortage/284359/

Long article, but here are a couple of my favorite snippets.

"Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations."

"Labor markets for scientists and engineers also differ geographically. Employer demand is far higher in a few hothouse metropolitan areas than in the rest of the country, especially during boom periods. Moreover recruitment of domestic professionals to these regions may be more difficult than in others when would-be hires discover that the remuneration employers are offering does not come close to compensating for far higher housing and other costs."

 

[rconnor]

And it’s official! Godwin’s Law has been validated once again!

Urgross, the two are similar however I feel that a plutocracy is more of direct leadership “by and for the few” whereas in an oligarchy it is more indirect through influence and pressure where the “by” is irrelevant as external influences/systemic issues will always make it “for the few”. But ya, it’s splitting hairs. I really like Lawrence Lessig’s Republic Lost on the matter (here’s a talk). The issue isn’t that the government is too large or too small but that the system has been twisted to represent the needs and wants of campaign contributors, not the people at large. The paper I linked before does a great job quantifying this issue.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Case in point:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rprise-money-does-equal-access-in-washington/

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[cranky108]

That's why like babies, lawmakers should be changed often, and for the same reason.

Term limits would also help reduce the incumbent advantage. Makem run for a different office.

Here's an idea. Since we seem to be short of govermental leadership, maybe we should allow H1b visas for political leaders from other countries to fill the void. We can just say they were boarn in Hawaii as that state seems to have a problem with finding it's records of births in the state.

 

[JohnRBaker]

The answer is NOT term limits but rather citizens staying informed and then voting in every election so that they protect their own selfinterests and not those of the high-rolling contributors.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[cranky108]

I agree to a point. The point is most people running for office will attempt to hide there real agenda, and the news people will not make attempts to unhide these things because they are biased. The real story is rarely told (note declining news paper and tv news consumption). Also how is anyone to find out who is paid off?

And sometimes it's just good to have fresh ideas.

One thing out of our founding is that only the richest people were allowed to vote, and that maybe because the poor, and free-loaders will vote themselves money every time.

 

[KENAT]

Hmm, I think maybe we should have term limits for Engineers too. I mean new ideas and enthusiasm are more important than experience right?

I suspect term limits are at best a 'band aid' of potentially dubious effectiveness.

As to your comment about not allowing the poor to vote, well it's not like the rich have ever voted or supported a political cause that benefits them at the expense of others right?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[Gymmeh]

JohnRB I think you said it best on the other tread...and many other places when dealing with Gov Policy.

"At least professionals don't deify the rich since they know exactly how wealth is obtained, not like the sheep who watch Faux News and consistently vote against their own self-interests." -JRB

I am from a Po-dunk Town in NYS. I have vary large family, most of which vote based on what Stains Music, aka Faux News, tells them. Typically it is against there best interest, but because they are afraid of the internet (because Stains Music has made them), and doing even a little research into whats going on, they would realize they are only screwing themselves.

Easter Dinner conversation include, reduce school standards, reduce taxes, reduce EPA standards, No-increase in min wage, ETC. Most of my family makes <50K a year and all of these things will lower there quality of life. Fortunately the SafeACT has no effect on my family.

 

[imcjoek]

Term limits would also help reduce the incumbent advantage. Makem run for a different office.

The gerrymandering inherent in our FPTP system make term limits pointless.
The number of swing districts diminish every year.
The number of landslide districts increase every year.
Outgoing politicians can just rearrange districts to assure a sympathetic colleague will take their place.
A secondary result is an divergence towards extremism in candidates. A given party is guaranteed a win in their district. So the only threat comes from within the party. So you need to out crazy your own guys. Being moderate and compromising with "the other party" is just an invitation to lose your own primary.
Term limits are a nice red herring. Fix the mathematics of the election system and you fix incumbent advantage and a crap load of other problems as well.

The answer is NOT term limits but rather citizens staying informed and then voting in every election so that they protect their own selfinterests

It's in vogue to pin it all on an ignorant populace. What with their xbockses and their cellphones and their jello pudding snacks.
It's really the contrary... citizens are making logical and informed voting choices...but...
Strategic voting (again, a mathematical result of FPTP voting) means the most reasonable and logical candidate to vote for is usually NOT the candidate that best represents a voter's actual beliefs.
Most voters end up voting "against" someone, rather than "for" someone.
Worse, actually voting for the guy you "really want" is detrimentally to the aforementioned "selfinterest" as it is very likely to result in a victory for the guy you "really don't want in a million years".
So it follows that to protect their self-interests, a voter must paradoxically vote for someone who they probably don't want, less they get the guy they DEFINITELY don't want.

One thing out of our founding is that only the richest people were allowed to vote, and that maybe because the poor, and free-loaders will vote themselves money every time.

Our founders were by and large rich.
Arguably the American revolution was precipitated by business. Our founders did not think they were getting a fair deal from the crown re: export of their products, taxes, etc.
They weren't terribly interested in "freedom" and "inequality" beyond "freedom to run our businesses". All other considerations were secondary or non-existent.

 

[Maui]

Here is even more misleading information that was just released to the public regarding the discussion at Hand:

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local-education/stem-talent-not-enough-to-meet-jobs-demand/nfgC7/

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[cranky108]

So much of our electoral system is boiled down to voteing against someone. So the one who rases enough dead is the winner.

The fact is most people are disenfrangised with the political system, and will vote for the name that most matches there favrite beverage, if they vote at all.
I'm guilty of some of that. I don't have kids in public schools, so I would likely vote for who ever runs on lowering property taxes. But that person will never win because they are seen as uncareing.

For senitor or congressman, it also dosen't matter, as the same party always wins. About the only issues that I really vote on is the next bond issue. But if it fails it will only reappear in the next election.

So it is understandable that there is such a low voting turnout.

As far as engineers with a new perspective, they want the latest and greatest, without knowing how to apply them.
Safer to say, we need both perspectives, old and young.

 

[Gymmeh]

Maui,

I followed the paper trail to find their definition of STEM. It seams it all depends on what Employers think a STEM job is and report to the Bureau of Labor.

I also found this.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/05/art1full.pdf

 

[Maui]

Gymmeh, thanks for that link. Interesting stats.

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[SlowPolk]

Here is an interesting link from NPR showing the percentage of college majors by graduating class. It looks like engineering has remained stable other than a slight uptick in the mid eighties. It is also interesting to see that even though the percentages are mostly the same, the actual number of engineering graduates has been increasing due to more and more people going to college over the last decade. Unless engineering industries are going to suddenly create a whole lot more jobs in the future, it would appear we are very far from having a "shortage".

What's Your Major? 4 Decades Of College Degrees, In 1 Graph

 

[Gymmeh]

Thats a fun graph

 

[TomDOT]

Oh noes, the number of people with education degrees is falling. We actually get some teachers with a degree in their subject, not just a degree in "education."

I also wonder how many of the degrees early on were "Mrs" degrees... That was always the joke about a large fraction of education majors when I was in school.

 

[btrueblood]

Interesting that there is an uptick in Journalism degrees, somewhat concurrently to the rise of the internet in the '80's, that has persisted to current day. Wondering what all the journalism grad's. do in these days of declining newspaper subscriptions, and the conglomeration of so much of the media (i.e. a real decline in the number of paid journalists from what I've read). I guess they all write blogs in their spare time between retail jobs?

 

[TomDOT]

Where are they working? Buzzfeed, Politico, Drudge, Huffington Post, et cetera, et cetera. Plenty of online journalism (or "journalism") outlets making tons of money.