The public's view of our profession in the US 2

[65Roses]

Recently I've read a lot about how the engineering profession is not viewed by the public like it used to be. The authors of these articles speak about how we have lost ground to other professions such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc, in the eye of the public. These authors (for example NCEE representatives) go on to blame the educational system stating the traditional 4 year undergraduate engineering degree is not what it used to be. They state today's degree is a watered down version of what was taught 30 or 40 years ago and that Universities need to add a couple more years of course work to the requirements of obtaining an engineering degree.

I think that is nonsense. I've believe our problem with how we are perceived by the public is how we conduct ourselves at work.

First of all start with the current dress code at most companies across the US today. An engineer used to wear a tie to work. The dress code these days seems to be dress casual. I frequently observe co-workers wearing t-shirts, blue jeans (worn out)and sneakers. Most don't even bother to iron their shirts anymore even if they do wear one with a collar. I also see co-workers who will go a week or so without shaving and others who rarely keep a neat and trim haircut. What kind of impression does this give to those who come in contact with us who are not engineers? I know in my factory most production asssociates can't distinsh a technician from an engineer and I suspect this is one of the reasons why.

Second of all I think some (not all) engineers have become complacent in their jobs. This again gives the wrong impression to those who we work with that aren't engineers. These associates often form a negative view about the skills of engineers and then pass their views about engineers onto family member, friends, etc.

Third engineers today are just considered staff to upper management. My father who has worked on the manufacturing line for nearly 35 years speaks of the days when engineers were considered part of management and were referred to as management. Now days we are just called staff. Our job has no prestige. Today we have salaried associates with no degrees or some sort of Bachelor of Arts degree higher up on the corporate ladder than all the engineers in the company.

Just my two cents on this topic. What is your opinion(s)?

 

[arunmrao]

"In my opinion, and in the expressed opinion of many of my customers, too many self-important consultants running around in suits and ties, generating drawings and specs on paper with basically zero accountability to the client beyond generating new drawings and specs if their original design doesn't work out- these people are much more responsible for a decrease in our profession's esteem than any change in dress code."

Molten metal my opinion is same as yours.
Too strong a comment! I do not know how the PEs will react.

 

[NeedAHoliday]

Not sure of other parts of the world but within Australia there is a relatively high regard for the engineering profession I believe. The main issues I perceive within the profession are 3 fold:

1) I believe the quality of the qualifications has decreased since the advent of higher education fees. Prior to this when higher education was totally funded by the Government universities had strict admission quotas and were more than willing to fail every student should they not come up to par. These days I am seeing that quotas are increasing and the performance bar is decreasing as more "bums on seats" equals to greater revenues within the universities plus there are incentives offered by government per student etc etc. Universities are now a business enterprise for undergraduate studies rather than learning facilities.

2) There is now a new breed of engineer (again not all), one that is on contract rates within large consultancies who creates documentation and designs without ever taking responsibility and when problems arise, leaves and goes on contract salary at another large firm needing resources. This type of engineer is not only inept but I personally believe this is in breach of ones ethical responsibility as a professional engineer. This in turn creates a negative perception for the majority of competent and hard working engineers

3) Ego - Those that for some reason need themselves to be perceived as above other professions (as well as those in there own).

Personally I love what I do. Not for others or for society recognition, but because I get a kick out of it which is enough for me. There is nothing comparable to feeling of solving a problem that almost brings one to the brink of violent apoplexy in the process.

I personally don't view medical doctors in any higher regard than I do a shop salesman as the salesman could be exceptional at his job while the doctor could pardon my language be a complete ass in his profession. One's external perception is derived by one's competencies and one's interactions within their occupational fraternity, be them good or bad.

To try and put it as succinctly as I can, if a town called Somewhere Over the Hill, in the country of NoName has a lower opinion of Engineers then so be it, why?? Because I honestly couldn't care less; I am happy, I have money to to provide for my family. At the end of the day we go to work to earn money so we can live outside of work, if you have this you are lucky, if you enjoy it while your at it then you are blessed.

Enjoy your life, those you have as friends and loved ones, they have the opinions that count. Does it really matter what society thinks about a job someone else does.

This post is in no way intended as a slight on any posting here, more it is a reminder to me that society seems more driven by materialistic ambition and personal gratification, than on quality.

I work for myself and my loved ones, not for any other reason. Most people wouldn't even think to rate the professions unless given a survey they aren't really interested in responding to anyway.

Just my 2 cents. I'm off my soap box now.

K.

 

[Beggar]

Personally, I couldn't care less what the "public" thinks about my profession. I'm really only interested in what I think about it myself and how my boss thinks about me (that is, does he compensate me sufficiently).

Regarding dress: Today I'll be wearing shorts and a tee shirt. Some days it's khakis, loafers, and a button-up long-sleeve. Occasionally it's the khaki thing with a tie thrown in. It's never a suit unless I'm interviewing.

As someone said above, dress appropriately.

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Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

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[SomptingGuy]

My main gripe about the "public image of engineering" is that it takes ages to explain to anyone what it is that I actually do. Saying "I'm an engineer" is pointless - I might as well say "I do stuff at work" for all the meaning it conveys.

I don't want or need a pat on the back for being an engineer. As others have said: it pays the bills and I enjoy it, probably more than many people enjoy other jobs. In that respect I consider myself lucky.

It would just be neat if I could answer the casual: "So what do you do?" questions with a simple, short and clear answer. As it is, my answer normally starts with: "I work for a company that designs and develops....", like I'm trying to show off rather than simply answer the question.

 

[Tobalcane]

I do believe that perception is everything, what school you went to, what city you grew up in, the clothes you wear, and what job you have. Growing up in the ghettos of New York the association of the tough guys you hanged out with and the perception of being a tough guy your self can mean a life of respect or life of scurrying in the shadows trying to survive. I though this would change once I moved out and into the middle class, but it is sad to say that this way of thinking is still the same. It may be a different environment, but the perception of your job and company (status you carry and the tough guys you hanged out with) will affect how other people will treat you. You may say that you don’t care, but the only way to advance in life is to impress somebody. I am not trying to be vain but realistic.

Joe Public at the next social engagement can be your next job contact or reference, but if Joe Public does not know what you do because engineering has become so obscure, you may have missed an opportunity to advance your self. Opportunities do not come often, but if I can up the percentage of chance by educating the public of our profession I would.

It’s not only the issue of causal conversation with people, but the other social endeavors you are trying to achieve. I have seen may of times within social fraternities to community service groups when people want to head up a project and in the back ground you can hear “well what does s/he do for a living?” and may sway how people will help you. It is the ugly truth, but unavoidable.

For the Mechanical Engineers, when you tell them that you are a ME and then ask you where is your garage, I usually say “well it’s on the side of my house, why?”.




Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[EddyC]

Tobalcane,

I don't bother to attempt to impress anyone anymore because it ends up being a moving target and I'm tired of trying to keep up. If people aren't impressed by who I am as a person, then either something is wrong with me or them. From my experiences, its them that have something wrong.

 

[QCE]

When I work in the field I wear a tee shirt and jeans. When I'm in the office I wear tee shirt and jeans. I don't interact with the public so why should I wear a suit?

Why do you think dress code matters? The public doesn't commonly walk into an engineering environment. Do you think people would notice that all engineers are dressed up and then change their opinion of engineers? Get real.

This thread is fairly silly.

The engineers that do come to site wearing suits or even ties are the ones that everyone laughs at.

 

[ziggi]

I have to agree with a previous post stating that perception is everything. I notice it everywhere I go, and the people who are most vehemently against it are those that try hteir hardest to maintain a certain image. Personally I wear jeans and tees to work, but thats only because I like to get hands-on with a project so that it gets out the door (jumping over red-tape in the process). It's a good thing our plant is non-union, because I would be in so much trouble. However if I had it my way I would be wearing the finest suits I can to work, primarily because I like to look good and I like the way that people look at me when I am dressed up. Huge ego problems you say? Meh probably, don't care really. Anyway it would look quite good for the engineering profession when its youngin's walk around in suits and ties. Too bad our job conditions nearly always makes that impossible. And if I wore a suit and tie at work everyday, my report with the shop guys will be tarnished, they already bitch and complain about my khaki wearing bosses, and my jeans wearing image and hands-on attitude is percieved well by them. Thank God for Machiavelli.

As for describing what I do at work. I tell people that I boss other people around all day, it's not something I'm ashamed of and it's not something I flaunt. I enjoy getting others to do the work and I enjoy the fact that if need be I can join in on what they're doing and add some variety to my job. I feel that engineers in general are some of the most intelligent and grounded people I know. My two best friends are lawyers and doctors, both hate their peers, the lawyers are predominantly whiners and liars and the doctors are whiners and wussies. Every engineer I know who has gone on to management is a cunning and sly bastard and I hope they never change, sets a good example for the rest of us. Unfortunately our profession is also full of the timid engineers who are willing to accept anything without question and this causes problems for the rest of us who feel pride in our profession and who are not afraid of a confruntation.

Well enough of my rambling, I have to go tell someone to do something.

 

[JTreglio]

If you think it's difficult explaining what you do as an engineer, try being a physicist!

I think the bad perception of engineers in the U.S. is due to trends in this country. The first is money. There was a time when engineering salaries were not bad compared to other professions, lawyers and the like. No more. Unfortunately, this leads to a lack of respect in a society that worships the almighty dollar.

The second trend is quite scary -- the revival of creationism. Technical people live on facts -- two and two always equals four, if you can see light from a star four billion light years away, the star must be at least four billion years old. But the creationists believe the universe is 10,000 years old, and that anyone arguing otherwise is anti-God.

How serious is it? Several states (Kansas comes to mind) have tried to force the teaching of evolution out of their school systems. Bills are pending in two other states (Ohio is one) which would make it possible for a student to sue a college professor if the professor were to teach evolution.

The third problem is the media. Name a single engineer in a recurring role on a sitcom. I can't. Then consider how engineers and scientists are depicted on television in the drama roles (such as CSI). They're all shown as nerds, with not much of a social life (or homicidal maniacs if they're the bad guys).

By the way, on the dress issue, I worked for a few years on a large fusion research project back in the early 80's. The project had technicians, scientists, engineers, and, of course, the occassional management representative. The technicians wore company coveralls. You could always tell the engineers -- they wore sport coats and ties. The managers were normally seen in three-piece suits. The scientists -- well, T-shirts, cut-offs and sandles were pretty common....

Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.

 

[Tobalcane]

EddyC,

I do agree that people should see the quality of the person and not be judged by the job you have. These people are usually your friends and family, but when you start going to general social networking engagements (golfing outings, tennis round robins, seminars, lectures,…etc) where you can make new contacts, one of the things that you get judged by is what job you have. Information and contacts is key to a successful career and life in general. It is pretty tough to be in a situation where I tell them that I am a ME and the first thought that comes to their mind is that I am a garage mechanic trying to sound important. At that point, I have to educate them of what I do, and then like turning on a light bulb, WOW comes out of there mouths. At that instance, I just went from a lower standing to a higher standing. Once you have established this standing with strangers, you can cultivate a contact relationship with that person.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[vooter]

I have found that tee shirts are pocket-protector unfriendly. That's why I wear "dress" shirts with strong pockets.

 

[MESC1]

Did you go into your job for prestige, or to get something done? If you are doing it for status then you are in the wrong field.

Thanks
SC

 

[EddyC]

I work to earn a living. Sometimes I get to enjoy what I do. But I didn't go into engineering to impress anyone. And I don't care what the general public thinks about engineering because the general public is too moronic to care about anything important.

 

[vooter]

" Name a single engineer in a recurring role on a sitcom."

"Joey" - Joey's nephew is an aerospace engineer, smart, too.

 

[JTreglio]

vooter,

I think I've seen Joey a few times, and if I remember correctly the nephew's a nerd. Why? Because Hollywood writers just believe that anyone with brains has to be a nerd, especially if they can do any math. For reference, I have three sons. One's a lawyer, one's an economist, and one's a chemist. Guess which one is the athelete and frat boy married to a beautiful gal? You guessed it -- the chemist.

Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.

 

[epoisses]

As soon as a charismatic and eloquent engineer stands up who can talk about engineering in simple and inspiring terms (I'm thinking of a Dr Phil kind of person), everybody will change their minds overnight.

I have visions of a talkshow about building bridges, revamping distillation columns, debugging accounting software... engineers, customers, suppliers and HR managers embrace each other, break out in tears, hit each other with shoes, call each other BEEEEP...

 

[QCE]

EddyC and Mesc1

Nice attitudes. Maybe the moron is the person that can't see that engineering wages have something to do with respect for the profession and the general image of the profession.

Please continue your I don't care what others think attitude. It sounds very professional.

 

[ewh]

QCE,
Are you saying that you're more concerned with status and what others think than doing something that you find rewarding for it's own sake? To me, that does makes EddyC and Mesc1 sound more professional.

 

[HgTX]

ewh--I doubt there's anyone here who does engineering purely for its own sake. It is NOT its own reward--that paycheck has a lot to do with it. Reread QCE's post.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[BigH]

This argument has been going about for many years - I remember back in Vancouver in the 1980s. I think, in general, that we worry too much about it. But, when you figure out what percentage of the 'public' actually are engineers or related to one, perhaps we should be held in higher regard - or maybe there are too many now that with that many, how can you have the same standards that once were?
There are a few positive steps we can take, in my view. I had all my personal cheques printed with P.Eng. (I'm from Canada) on it after my name. This clearly shows that I am a Professional Engineer. Secondly, do we use P.Eng. on personal letterheads? Thirdly, should we send out letters, even private ones to banks, credit card companies, letters to the editor, etc., we should be complete and sign our names as P.Eng. (or PE - or Chartered Engineer). And, should letters be published in papers, etc., then we should take the editors to task if they don't put the P.Eng. after our names (they would for Doctors). Perhaps, we should, like in Europe, Indonesia and other places use Ing. in front of our names instead of Mr. Wouldn't it had been great if Jimmy Carter (whatever you think of his politics) had been referred to as Ing. President Jimmy Carter instead of Mr. President? Herbert Hoover was a Mining Engineer of note - and internationally recognized. Sadly, the depression caused by Coolidge's policies gave Hoover the shaft. If you look back at many of the very large organizations/companies, years ago, there were many of them run by engineers even though they weren't practicing engineering anymore. Now, sadly, it is accountants. These may seem trivial and self-serving, but think how many people you would reach across the spectrum if all engineers would do this. After a while, people would take notice, I am sure.
There was a comment on television shows, etc. Sure, there is not "reality" show that we can easily put together except for a "Engineer-in-Training" aka "The Apprentice". But who would play the Donald Trump part? But there is a good show on National Geographic that, here in India, we have been getting, called I believe Mega-Projects. It was great - they had this huge hotel in Dubai, the Bridge linking PEI and New Brunswick in Canada and the like shown. Well, we need to get shows like this on regular tv rather than just on National Geographic or Discovery.
In the end, let's start by the little stuff we can do - and build on this. Taking credit for our achievements (use of Ing. and P.Eng./PE), visiting schools and giving talks on our profession; perhaps get a "star" rap group to do a song on Engineers! , get local and national newspapers to cover engineering stories (not just failures) as good positive PR. Then, perhaps we can start making a bit of progress.
Oh, yeah, and stop being so negative ourselves!
Okay, collegues, I now sign off here:
Ing. BigH, P.Eng.(ON)