This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter 7

[Tobalcane]

“There are a lot of [science and engineering] jobs going to individuals with an associate’s degree and some with only a high school diploma.”

http://www.nspe.org/etweb/11004educationreport.asp

Start of rant>>>
This scares me that people with out the proper education level are doing engineering work or even using the title. That all you need is a high school diploma to get a science or engineering job. We beat this dead horse before, but I sill think that this is wrong. For a person to call them self an engineer, at a minimum that person should have a bachelors degree (accredit by ABET of course) in the field that they are practicing. If this becomes a popular trait, soon we will have a country full of engineers that does not have the proper educational back ground. I really blame the companies that hire people with out the proper educational back ground. My guess is that they must be cheaper to hire than a fully educated engineer. In my opinion it is unethical for a company to tell their customers or even to the public that they have engineers on their staff. In reality the company has people that do not have the proper educational training to be engineers on their staff.
End of rant>>>

Thank you for indulging me.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[HgTX]

They don't define what's meant by a "science or engineering job", though. Does that include techs of various flavors? I bet a lot of jobs that engineering or science undergrads might hold as part-time or summer jobs (and therefore jobs that don't require a degree) could get termed "science and engineering jobs".

Part of the problem may be that non-engineering jobs are getting labeled as engineering, which cheapens the meaning of the word but isn't necessarily a reflection of inadequate training. (Then again, I could be completely wrong.)

Also, if there are people out there without the proper training labeled "engineer", part of the issue is that existing laws (at least in some states) about who can and can't be called an engineer aren't being enforced. I'm not sure who it would be up to to blow the whistle on that--the local professional engineering society?

Hg

 

[BillPSU]

Tobalcane,

Are you so arrogant to believe only a person with an engineering degree can be an engineer. Look in your own shop if you work at a manufacturing plant. Who designs your fixtures to manufacture your designs? A degreed manufacturing engineer, I doubt it. Doing a time study requires an industrial engineering degree? Orville or Wilbur Wright neither had a college degree.

People who understand forces, materials, tolerancing, processes and designs are the people who can be an engineer. Most of these people in today's world do have degrees but it is not necessary to be a good designer. Understanding and knowledge are the keys and freshly graduated engineers still require lots of mentoring and desire to become a good engineers.

 

[kevstar]

BillPSU,

I think you are right, there are lots of people out there in engineering that are highly skilled at their jobs and who understand all manner of engineering related topics but do not have the propoer training/qualifications. These people should not be called engineers, they do not have the training to be called as such.

In a hospital, you are hardly likely to see a doctor clearing down bed sheets or administering medicines that is the work of the nurse. Never the less it is the doctor that decides on who much medicine to give the patient and through his instructions the nurse administers. In the same breath, you cannot walk into a hospital as a doctor unless you have the necessary qualifications to be called one. This is exactly the same in engineering regardless of who is doing what job.

Unless you have the necessary training/qualifications to be called an engineer then you are not one.

 

[sms]

The article never said that non engineers were doing engineering jobs, or representing themselves as engineers. The NSPE would be the first to object to that. It was only a comment that in the world of science and engineering that there are jobs that non degreed people do. We have technicians of various capabilities in our organizations, and few of them even have an associates degree. But they do important work under the supervision of engineers. Kevstar's analogy of doctors and nurses is exactly correct.

Having said that, I would be the first to agree that when non degreed people call themselves engineers it is a problem. A couple good examples are the maintenance guys in a large building, or the tech with a high school education that runs a sound board or a camera in the broadcast business. In both of these cases it is common for them to be refered to as engineers, when they generally are not degreed engineers, and are certainly not registered professional engineers.

I have had some involvement with the recording business over the years, and I called our PE board and asked about the use of the term broadcast or recording engineer. The PE board rep told me that while using the term engineer for these people was not legal unless they were registered PE's, that the board generally ignored it as it does not affect public safety. I guess they have to choose their battles....

 

[Tobalcane]

Bill PSU,

Please don’t take me the wrong way. I am not attacking the intelligent people, but the companies that abuse the use of the engineering tile and the profession as a whole. If anybody off the street can come in and take an engineering job or given an engineering title with just a high school degree, this will bring down the professional persona of the title and profession as a whole. Right now I do feel that we still have a professional persona, but if companies keep hiring less than a bachelor degree employee we will have a country full of non-educated trained engineers that companies can take advantage.

<<< Are you so arrogant to believe only a person with an engineering degree can be an engineer.>>>

Why is it that every time somebody says that in order to be an engineer you got to have an engineering degree that this is an arrogant point of view? To have the proper training and credentials, does this indicate that this person is an arrogant sob? Well when I start looking for a doctor for my daughter I will look for the brightest arrogant sob possible. A doctor that believes that in order to be a doctor that person should have the proper credentials. If I have to be represented in the court of law, I will look for the best arrogant sob lawyer possible to defend or represent me in court. If I have to get medicine from a pharmacy, I will look for the arrogant sob credentials on the wall to make sure that the person in charge will make sure that I am getting the right medication. If I want to wire up my house, I will look for an electrician that has his arrogant sob electrician certification. So why when companies look for engineers, they are taking in people with a minimum of an associate’s degree? I feel that it is arrogant of the people that do not have the right credentials to practice in something that other people have worked so hard to obtain.

<<< People who understand forces, materials, tolerancing, processes and designs are the people who can be an engineer. Most of these people in today's world do have degrees but it is not necessary to be a good designer. Understanding and knowledge are the keys and freshly graduated engineers still require lots of mentoring and desire to become a good engineers.>>>

In my company, I collaborate with my designers and draftsmen. They have great ideas that we put towards the design, but at the end of the mechanical qualification test of vibrations, shock, and thermal and if there are any problems guess who the first person they call upon? Is it the draftsmen? Well no because he is responsible for the drawings, he has no understanding of vibration, shock or thermal. Is it the designer? Well no because he only understands the standards, he may have a good feeling on vibration, shock, and thermal, but does not know how to do the analysis so he takes his directions from the engineer (my designer will even tell you that he is not the engineer). If you guessed “engineer” you are correct. The engineer is the only one that can do the analysis of vibration, shock, and thermal to get to the root cause of the problem BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED BACK IN COLLEGE AND HAS A DEGREE ON HOW TO DO THE ANALSYSIS. The draftsman can not do this, the designer can not do this, but an educated bachelor holding mechanical college person can. Pleas note that the powers that be did not go to the draftsmen, did not go to the designer (which both does not need a bachelors degree), but the “engineer” who understands a little bit more than the draftsmen and designer on “engineering” topics of vibration, shock, and thermal.

The Wright brothers never missed represented them selves to be engineers (that would be to arrogant) why should anybody in this day and aged start?


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[Tobalcane]

From article:
<<<This report shows that science and engineering jobs are not only for the highly educated,” says John Tsapogas of the National Science Foundation’s Human Resources Statistics Program. “There are a lot of [science and engineering] jobs going to individuals with an associate’s degree and some with only a high school diploma.”>>>

I’m taking this insert that “science and engineering jobs are not only for the highly educated” as in the jobs that are usually for the highly educated people are being done by people who have less than a bachelors degree.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[HgTX]

Good point about the recording industry. I work with a "sound engineer" and my recordings were "engineered" by him. I don't have another word for it; it's standard in that industry, and everyone knows what it means. Seems like "sound technician" would refer to more of an assistant role.

Is it kind of like copyright cases where the same name can be used by two companies as long as they're in separate industries so there's no confusion?

Hg

 

[TheTick]

My last boss was not an engineer. He was, however, the engineering manager. This was mostly a title of convenience, so that the word "engineer" could be slipped onto his business card.

 

[BillPSU]

Kevstar and Tobalcane

I currently am a certified manufacturing engineer by Society of Manufacturing Engineering, SME. I do not have a degree. What do I call myself a manufacturing technician?

I've signed off on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fixturing and modified machine concepts on millions of dollars of product. I have solved part problems where design engineers were just scratching their heads.

My sister is a certified nurse anaesthetist CRNA, she orders and administers drugs without a doctor standing over her shoulder or even supervising. She keeps the patients alive on the operating table. She does have a degree on anaesthesia. Doctors aren't the only ones who can order drugs for patients.

Imagine a non-degreed black man from the south teaching heart surgeons about surgery. Designing sugical instruments. Collaborating on the first open heart surgery. That man existed, Vivien Thomas.

This is my last post on this topic as many people still believe you cannot learn from experience and on the job search for knowledge and understanding. Reading a book(s), studying the topic, learning to use the formulas, understanding the math, and doing experiments can be done by people without a degree and not in a university setting. Getting people to believe you know what you are talking about is the problem.

I happen to be in school now because I cannot get a job without a degree. I will have an engineering technology degree in the spring not an engineering degree. My school cannot offer an engineering degree due to politics between state universities. Even colleges squabble between themselves.

I've seen the lackadasical attitude of some college students and question the amount of knowledge learned by some of these individuals but somehow these people learn enough on the job to get it done. Huh, imagine that, on the job training. A PE requires so many years of on the job experience. Experience is a valuable teacher and so many people slight its affect. Intelligent people exist without degrees and even certifications.

Just recently a high school dropout piloted Spaceship 1 into space and became the first FAA commercial astronaut.

 

[kevstar]

BillPSU,

I must back down on my point about the medical profession. With a member of your family being in it you obviously have a much clearer insite into this aspect.

I think maybe you miss understood my point. I have never said that people without degrees are useless or that they cannot do the job or that they should not get recognition for their work. Indeed I completely agree with you that you dont need to have a degree to be good at the job I also agree in the fact that some university graduates that come out with degrees have NO IDEA about what they are trying to achieve. I know of degree qualified designers that have come out of university and gone straight into an engineering disipline only to design something that is impossible to manufacture.

I myself did the on-the-job training and only went to get my degree as I could get another day off at college a week!(I did it day release) I didn't need and dont need a degree.

My point is this, there are a lot of people out there that by the very nature that they can unscrew a plug top refer to themselves as engineers and this is NOT RIGHT. This is what gives the profession a bad name. People ask me what do I do, I say I am an engineer they then ask me which car garage I work for!! This is what is incorrect.

I temporarily left the engineering profession to study computer programming as I wish to get into the automation/control side of engineering. Having spent 4 years now in IT I am trying to get back into engineering. Now because people see that the last thing I did was IT they think that I cannot do engineering and that is whith a degree (and all the other qualification AND EXPERIENCE!!!!) sometimes it is not as clear cut as we want it to be.

Hope I didn't offent you with my views, good luck at your degree and I hope it all works out for you.

Kev
Fellow Manufacturing Systems Engineer!

 

[havesealwilltravel]

Just some observations:

o The standard BILLING rate (where I live) for a Senior Engineer is about $62.00/hr. The local car dealerships charge $70.00 to $75.00/hr. for a mechanic. Most engineering careers peak at the level of Senior Engineer. (Let's not talk about the exceptional high paid engineering manager.)

o Engineers will relocate if they feel that a job is stable and offers career opportunities. Engineers will not relocate if they feel that the job is temporary. Employers want contract engineers at the price of permanent employees. A good discriminator is whether or not they will pay relocation cost. Most will not.

 

[havesealwilltravel]

It is simplisticly true that billing rates are not salaries. But billing rates do indicate the value that the economic market (society) places on certain goods and services. Since engineering companies are in business for profit and not the public good, it can be rationally assumed that the billing rates for engineers are "what the market will bear". Society values (at least in economic terms) 1 hour of a mechanics services to be more valuable than 1 hour of the typical engineers time.

In terms of "value to society" engineers rank low on the percieved value scale. If engineering practiced "professional birth control" as other professions do, maybe we would become more valuable to society and serve the profession by admitting only the best to the professions.

 

[GOTWW]

When the chips are down and you are hungry, your degree/license will power you into a better bargining position for a job when competing for at least an equal rate of pay. That is unless the employer is truely a scum.

 

[BobPE]

Its simple economics of supply and demand. The more we engineers argue who can do engineering, the more people take it upon themselves to bypass us and just do engineering. This increases the supply and lowers the demand, lower demand = lower costs. Now granted, this is a simplistic view...but it is true for the most part and kinda leads us back to the original post. Just who can be an "engineer" and what do we real engineers have to say about it?

BobPE

 

[Tobalcane]

I know an engineer that his company bills the customer $250 per hour plus expenses for his engineering services. Now to compare apples to apples, you have to compare this to another business to business service. The only thing I can think of is a CPA, but I don’t know what they bill.

<<<The more we engineers argue who can do engineering, the more people take it upon themselves to bypass us and just do engineering.>>>
This is what’s happing in our profession. But, we beat this dead horse before. Companies are looking for cost effective people to fill engineer jobs, even if that person does not have an engineering degree. Sooner or later we will have engineers asking if you want fries and a coke with that service order.

Case in point of having an engineering degree (from a mechanical engineering point of view), in my last company I worked on a project that parts of it went to other departments and one part went outside to an outside vendor. We have specs are harsh in heat and vibration. We gave the outside vendor the specs to design too. Six months later at the “post” critical design review, we came together to make sure that our (mine and the other departments) design and outside vendor’s design would meet the spec. The person that came from the outside vendor introduced him self as the “mechanical engineer” of the design. When the presentation started, we shared our analysis that showed that our design had good margin of working to the other groups in our company and the outside vendor. The other departments did the same. When it was the outside vendor’s turn, his presentation ran like a sales pitch with no analysis to show that his design would work to our spec. The program manger asked if they did any analysis to show margin. The mechanical engineer response was that he could not do the analysis. The program manger was perplexed and said that most of this was straight out of college analysis. In trying to save face, the mechanical engineer said that he did not go to college, that he was the mechanical designer type and only did the design. To make a long story short, it took another four weeks for us to do the analysis and corrections for the outside vendor. There were some issues that had to be taken care of, but at the end we showed (with the new improvements) that the outside vendors design would work. After qualifications, we were doing pretty well. The program manager from that point forward with every outside vendor made sure that who ever was working on the design was a least a college graduate.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[EddyC]

Although there are state laws that indicate who can legally call themselves an engineer, there are no laws proscribing who can actually do engineering. There are numerous people with varying educations and experiences who do engineering. Some "design persons" have high school degrees, some 2-year degrees, some 4-year degrees, some licensed. Some have degrees in engineering and some in other fields. Some have little experience and others have a lot. The world of engineering has always been this way. As long as the product or service produced does the job, society generally interferes as little as possible. Society has decided to regulate certain engineering activities in some fields. If you are designing buildings and infrastructure, the use of PEs are required. If you are designing aircraft and automobiles, physical testing is required. The majority of industries are between these two extremes.

 

[BobPE]

EddyC:

There are laws in all States defining who can do engineering and they are very clear. Unfortunately, the enforcement of these laws in lax.

There are few laws in exempt practice and maybe that is what you are refering to. That subject usually gets discussed with vibrant color in many of the rooms.

A PE is required if you provide engineering services for someone in ANY disipline of engineering unless you are an employee for an exempt industry. Only then can you provide engineering services to the company you work for, and only that company as long as you are an employee. You need a PE if you provide engineering services for an industry and you are not an employee...

BobPE

 

[EddyC]

BobPE,

I was refering to engineering as a whole. I have worked in both industry and consulting. I have been an employee in both environments. I am currently an employee in a consulting firm. We have many individuals in my current employer's firm who are not PEs and are doing engineering. Before I became a PE, I was still doing engineering. So it indeed is the case that someone can do engineering under a variety of education/experience/license combinations. The only thing that a person can't do without a PE is:

Perform Consulting Engineering as an Owner.

Since most engineers are employees, most of them won't need to be PEs. In my case, the PE serves as a credential rather than a state regulatory requirement. Why? Because the owner of the firm is a PE and he is the one who stamps the drawings.

 

[BobPE]

EddyC:

the laws in the states are very clear. I have had the opportunity in my involvement to read all but 2 states laws and they make no reference ot "performing consulting engineering as an owner." They mostly say something on the line of non engineers cannot provide engineering services that require the use of scientific or mathmatic principals as they pertain to engineering. The fines for soing so can be quite sever and for the most part, engineering can only be dispensed as stated in my previous post.

I am not picking a fight with you here, I just want to make sure statements like this are very clear as someone may go out and practice engineering and get fined or hurt their careers based on what we post here.

Non PE's working in a consulting firm work under the supervision of PE's. This is always the case, or if it isn't, it may be illegal practice of engineering. They may be doing engineering,accounting, design, or copying for that matter...

take care....