This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter 7

[Tobalcane]

Bob PE,
Just a question...what is the definition of non-engineers? As in non PEs?

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[BobPE]

Tobalcane:

In my latest statement, non engineers would mean non PE's, sorry for the confusion in my post...

BobPE

 

[EddyC]

BobPE,

You seem to be interpreting the state regulations a little differently than me. I'd like to get your opinion on the following scenario:

a) A person graduates with a BSCE.
b) That person gets a job at a consulting engineering firm.
c) That person works under the supervision of a PE.
d) That person does structural design of buildings.

Would you say that the person in question was doing engineering? Or would you say he was doing designing? Or would refer to what he was doing with some other description?

In my opinion, he was doing engineering, but I'd like to get your opinion.

Thanks.

 

[BobPE]

EddyC:

That person would be doing engineering under the supervision of a PE. Lets change your question to something a bit different for fun. Lets say that person had no degree and follows the same scenario you laid out. Would that person be doing engineering? I would say yes, and again under the supervision of a PE. All work is being done for the PE, and legally, under the PE's direction. So I think there is again, another confusing defination. Ultimately, the PE is the only one who can take responsibility for the work and present it to the "public."

Where I work, I am not an owner, but I sign and seal drawings and documents.

I also consult outside my normal work, and to do so legally, I need the PE. Without the PE, one cannot provide engineering services to the "public" unless they do so under the guidelines of exempt practice.

the laws are tough, and I think the more we talk about them, the better informed we can all be..and who knows, maybe we can change the laws if we don't liket hem...

take care..

BobPE

 

[kevstar]

This is a very interesting discussion. I am coming from the UK here and not the US so I am not so familiar with your terms. What is a PE - what does it stand for?

Thanks

Kev

 

[Tobalcane]

Kevstar,
PE means Professional Engineer, but check out this web site by National Society of Professional Engineers for a better flavor of what it means to be a PE.

http://www.nspe.org/lc1-why.asp

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[BobPE]

kevstar:

PE = Professional Engineer; it is a term to signify that the practicing engineer has passed requirements of a state board here in the states and is licensed to practice engineering.

As I understand, things are a bit different there on the island.

BobPE

 

[DrillerNic]

In the UK, a perrenial gripe of engineers is to see people calling themselves 'Domestic Heating Engineers'- better known as plumbers or 'Refuse Engineers'- aka dustmen.

The battle to make 'Engineer' a notifiable title (like Doctor) in the UK has been lost, although if people want to they can become registered European Engineers and move from Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss to 'Euring'. Personally, I don't know how to pronounce it! In much of Europe 'Engineer' (or the equivalent in the local language) IS notifiable- I was called "Dottor Ingineur" while working in Portugal, for example.

Legally, there's also little regulation on who can do 'engineering' in the UK. Insurance companies and certifying authorities are very nervous insuring or approving plant etc that wasn't designed or checked by a 'competent person'. But generally, the only time there's a legal aspect to competency is if there's an accident: if it all goes tits up you've got to show in court that the person who designed it was 'competent'. One of the easiest ways in the UK to proove you are a 'competent person' is to be a Chartered Engineer (which I think is equivalent to PE in the States?). So for example, I became chartered so that I could sign off oil & gas reserves estimates as a legally accepted 'competent person'.

Currently there are two routes to becoming a Chartered Engineer- an accredited degree, followed by a minimum period of professional training and experience, or lots (decades) of professional training and experience on a case by case basis (and maybe passing the Engineering Council's exams too, depending upon the individual and the Chartering Institution- the Institute of Mechanical Engineers is famously strict, for example). There are moves to try and stop the non-degree route to chartered engineer, in an attempt to "raise the status of the engineering profession" (see first paragraph!), by introducing the new professional qualification of Chartered Engineering Technician for those without a degree. At the same time, many 3 year BSc (Eng) engineering degrees are loosing their accreditation: accredited degrees are being restricted to the 4 year BEng or MEng degrees.

As a side issue, in the UK for centuries there were two kinds of medical professional: a Doctor, who'd been to university, gave out drugs etc and Surgeons, who cut people open. Surgeons were self taught, didn't go to university, were called 'Mr' and were looked down upon by 'proper' doctors. Gradually, the two professions linked up, so that now, you start in medical school as a 'Mr' or 'Ms' (or whatever), become a 'Dr' on graduation and then eventually revert to 'Mr' when you become a hosptial consultant or surgeon!!!

 

[kevstar]

First of all thank you for explaining the meaning of PE for me.

DrillerNic,

it is great to have someone else here that is from the UK or at least understands the UK side of the engineering market.

I finished studying for my degree in Manufacturing systems (which is an accredited degree at least it was!) while I finished this though I changed from an engineering profession to an IT consultant so that after a couple of years I could return to the engnineering profession with enough programming experience to move into the automation/Control side of engineering. Well to cut a long story short I have been looking for a position for the last 18 months without any luck. I get offered technicians jobs in maintenance or service but this is NOT what I want to do. I thought about joining the IMechE to see if that would help. Maybe this is the wrong place for this post but what am I likely to get out of joining it and would it help on my quest for a job that I WANT and that I CAN do.

Thanks
Kev

 

[Tobalcane]

DrillerNic and Kevstar

In the UK (influenced here in EngTips) that the engineering title and profession is on the down slide (please correct me if Im wrong, I would like to be more optimistic about your job economy for engineers), because of people and companies are taking advantage of the engineering title to have the facade of importance of their jobs. This trend is starting (have started) and is begging to drag the profession (classic engineering, i.e. mechanical, electrical, civil, chemical, and legitimate braches that fall under each practice) down with it. I can’t tell you how many times at a social function that when I say that I’m a mechanical engineer, that they start telling me their car problems.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[BobPE]

I feel the same way Tobalcane, that is one of the reasons I try to communicate my thoughts on the subject as often as I can. It is our profession here in the states and it is what we make of it...Problem is, most engineers don't want to make anything of it...

When I tell people I am an "engineer" I often get "oh yea, I am going to school to be an engineer too, I have 2 weeks left in my 6 week program, then I will be an engineer like you too, whats it like being an engineer???..." I laugh, but it is not funny to them...That is the real scarey thing...

BobPE

 

[kevstar]

BobPE, Tobalcane

This is going round in circles. I posted comments like this right at the start of this post!!!

 

[EddyC]

Well since some people feel that this is going in circles, lets throw out another thought. The basic problem stated at the beginning of the forum was that individuals who are not real engineers are being given engineering duties.

There are many states where one cannot publically call oneself an engineer unless you have a PE license. Therefore, if you don't have an engineer's license and cannot call yourself an engineer, can your job fuction be described as engineering? This is not necessarily my opinion, but lets get some feedback.

I think that we may end up in a conundrum if we say that people who work on buildings (like me) are engineers doing engineering, but that people in industry (who do some really innovative work) are not. Lets hear your thoughts.

 

[HgTX]

That's a no-brainer; it's even built into the system. We're required to do 4 years of "engineering work" to get our PEs--by definition performing engineering work while not being engineers.

Hg

 

[pso311]

A BS from an ABET-accredited University earns one the respect to be called Engineer. They have met certain accepted minimum levels of competence to perform engineering functions.

Licensure is similar, except that your own personal liability is much greater(E&O), so more opportunity for jobs/advancement/pay exists.

I'm not a P.E., but may test in the future...want more experience before I stick my neck out that far.

-Scott

 

[BobPE]

pso311:

I wish you luck in testing for the PE, it is always great to hear the fellow engineers are going for it....

EddyC:

In you reference to job functions as to whether or not one can call themselves an engineer...I think this is a key in our thinking. Just who should determine who is qualified to be an engineer? Politicans? exempt persons? public? PE's? Industry? Accountants? Right now, there are a lot of people defining engineers, and not many of them are engineers. They have little or no clue what it means to be an engineer. That is why I look to the PE. It is not a device to say PE is better than a non-PE, but it does allow us engineers to say...if you want engineering, you need this minimum level. If you are not using this minimum level then......(there would be some type of penalty). We engineers can then make the PE what we want, not what other non engineers want. Then, non degreed people wanting to be engineers know what they have to accomplish to reach this goal.

I too like circles...in my world of straight lines, change is good.

BobPE

 

[GOTWW]

Half full or half empty. The US Navy's construction arm, or NAVFAC has recently issued the policy for their engineering. This is that in order to be at GS-12 or above you must be a PE. For lower grade levels you will need to demonstrate that you are progressing to PE by some means. I do not know the entry level requirements, but, passing the FE surely will be one of them. There is a clause that grandfathers non PE's to continue working as engineers, but however, can not be premoted nor be re-assigned into an engineering position w/o the PE.

This may be taken as a positive sign for the classically trained engineer.

However, others see is as another ploy to purge the workforce of as many personnel as possible. First, any advancement for the non-pE null, these become stagnant. Second for the high grade non-PE, they are scrd as of the constant reorg's will prohibit a re-assignment into an engineering roll. It will be fun to see how it all plays out. No-staff, design build is the real goal.

 

[DrillerNic]

BobPE: the issue of who can do engineering would seem to come down to an issue of competency (a big issue in the upsteam oil & gas issue right now- it used to be 'quality' then it became 'environment' and now 'competency assurance' is all the rage). Anyway, if you can proove (potentially in a court of law) that you're a competent person to do the design, fabrication, installation, production, installation etc of whatever it is that you're involved in, and you're doing to code and within accepted practice, then you should be OK, and you can call yourself an engineer. But how do you proove that you're competent? You can go through your qualifications, and your experience and professional training etc or (I guess) you can wave a piece of paper saying Chartered Engineer or PE or the local equivalent, especially as these professional qualifications include a manidatory continuous trainig element.

 

[BobPE]

DrillerNic: You still have to be careful about calling yourself an engineer outside of the "exempt" arena. I have been in the court of law scenario quite a bit...It can get disasterous. I have been called to question "engineers." As soon the lawyers found out they did not have PE's (in the states), the person could not apply or interperate engineering principals on the stand. Lawyers whom I worked with took full advantage of this an would always have me do and correct engineering on the stand. Even though the law may restrict "engineer," only engineers (PE's) can dispense engineering advice to the public and in the public arena.

I agree with you, quality is in the can now a day...and in my opinion, it is affecting the public in a big way..

just my thoughts...

BobPE

 

[Tobalcane]

Wow, you guys were busy. I just got back from vacation. A lot of good comments.

<<< Right now, there are a lot of people defining engineers, and not many of them are engineers. They have little or no clue what it means to be an engineer.>>>

BobPE brings up a good point that there are a lot of people out there that are defining engineers and not many of them are engineers. This rings very true in the exempt industries. Just follow along with me here.

The way I see it is that the exempt and non-exempt fields are like parallel universes. These two fields of engineering practice exist at the same time. Now in the non-exempt universes there seems to be order. There is a definition of who can be an engineer, how to be an engineer, who will police the engineers, even an anti virus mechanism to keep non-engineers at bay.

Now in the exempt universes, there is complete chaos. Where anybody can define who can be an engineer (HR and managers that are not engineers), how to be an engineer (all you need is a high school diploma), and nobody to police the charlatans. Maybe, just maybe, we need some sort of organization within the exempt universes that will act like the Professional Engineering Board (made up of engineers) that will help the HR and managers to define what an engineer does and what kind of credentials that are required (a minimum of a ABET accredited bachelors degree in that field). Also, monitor the integrity of the companies of hiring the right people with the right credentials.

To work in the exempt universes as an engineer, may be we have to come up with a title like “Professional Exempt Engineer” to indicate that person is competent enough to work in companies, but can not take liability over their designs. This title would shadow how PEs get their license. First take four years of engineering education from an accredited school (like the four years of engineering experience between FE/EIT and PE) and pass exams (like taking the PE exam twice a year for four years) that prove that the person is competent in engineering.

Well I’m going to vote…every body get out and vote!


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane