Tilt-Up with Thin Brick Quality 2

[STR04]

All,

Does anyone have experience with using thin brick in tilt-up? I'm working on a project using sandwich panels where we have thin brick embedded in the architectural wythe and the customer is having a fit over quality. They keep saying the brick will crack, the brick will crack...bla, bla, bla. Can anyone tell me their experience with this situation? Do I have a legitimate shot at quality or should I tell them "so what, concrete cracks too".

TIA

 

[UcfSE]

Is the customer offering an alternative to the thin brick? If you convince them to use it and it cracks down the road, your fault or not, they'll come after you for it. I'd ask what they prefer instead and see if it works out. Just something to consider. I don't have specific experience with thin brick on tilt panels to give you anything else.

 

[haynewp]

I have done thinset brick on solid tilt panels before. I don't recall hearing complaints about it cracking.

 

[Ron]

Casting brick into tilt panels is tricky but can be done. Some will likely pop off during lifting due to slight flexure.

Yes, cracks will reflect.

I would opt for putting brick veneer outside the panels. If you use the top cast side as your interior space behind the brick, you can embed brick ties in the concrete.

UcfSE has a good point....let them be a part of such a decision since it is not a structural issue, but an aesthetic one.

 

[STR04]

Funny, I spoke with a precast manufacturer (a registered engineer) today and he said that he doesn’t come across this issue. He followed by saying the only time he sees thin brick damage happens during shipping and that these pieces are chipped out and replaced in the field.

Ron - do you speak from experience or by judgment? I'm not knocking your insight, just trying to fully grasp the issue. If you’re speaking from experience can you tell me if you’ve seen the same thing occur in precast members?

 

[Ron]

STRO4...experience.

I have worked on projects with both pre-cast brick embedment and tilt panel embedments.

There was a company at one time that shipped the pre-cast panels to Saudi Arabia from the US for pre-cast hotel rooms. Everything was completed prior to shipping, then they were transported and erected. Presented an interesting bond problem with the brick, but it worked out for the most part.

 

[sundale]

I just went to a masonry seminar yesterday that had some fairly spectactular photographs of veneer failure of thin set faux stone on a tilt up wall panel. The thin set veneer looked like the cementicious Owens Corning product; this stuff is known locally as "lick and stick" stone. Thin brick (tile brick) would be very much the same.

This veneer was applied after the panel was erected. The cause of the delamination of the veneer from the tilt up panel was no bond of the mortar substrate. The cause of the lack of bond was the form release oil. I would have missed this but it makes complete sense.

The speaker said that acid washing, pressure washing, and mechanical roughening help, but may not do the trick. She said that the best method is to mechanically attach a metal lathe screen to the concrete, put the mortar substrate/setting bed over this, and then set your veneer.

This being said, I see architectural precast wall panels with tile brick all the time and have not heard of any veneer delamination, but I think that they maybe set the brick tiles in the cast bed before casting?

The answer most likely depends on when the veneer is applied. If it is applied in the casting bed (on site or at precasting plant) then there is probably good bond. If it is applied after the panel is erected, then the lathe and mortar backer seems a good answer.

 

[JAE]

I've also seen numerous presentations of using thin brick which is cast into the concrete.

Essentially, you lay out the brick face down, and the irregularity of the rear face of the thin brick creates a mechanical bond (not subject to the form oils, etc.) with the concrete which is placed over it.

Once cured, the panel is lifted and the brick looks like real stacked brick and I believe there have been many many successful projects using this method.

 

[STR04]

JAE - My situation has brick laying face down with concrete cast against it. My brick is supplied from Metrobrick.

I'm trying to determine what industry standard is. How many bricks can damage during a panel pick or during shipping? Concrete can be labeled as an architectural finish Grade 'A' so how does thin brick fall into this category?

http://www.metrothinbrick.com/

 

[JAE]

The link you posted has a number of projects shown in their "Gallery".

I also found a link to TCA (Tilt-Up Concrete Association) within this link and they may be able to get you some feedback on the track record for cast thin brick veneer.

 

[samdamon]

Fyi there's an article on problems with and repairing of a building finished with brick-veneered precast panels in May 2006 "Structure" magazine.

 

[JAE]

Here's the link:

Structure Magazine Link

It looks like this project used regular brick, then cut the brick in half to cast into the concrete. The latest systems I've seen deal with specially manufactured brick that may (I don't know for sure) possess different properties that would avoid this type of failure -

They seem to indicate that moisture was let in through the brick itself, and through the raked "mortar" joints and freezing/expansion caused the distress.

 

[rwwilson]

My experience with thin brick dates back 15 years as a precast concrete salesperson and an active member of The Precast Concrete Institute. PCI has a new standard for thin brick to be used by their producers.

The standard lists size tolerances, ASTM Standards and testing standars. A document that all architectrual precast producers are using when specifying and ordering thin brick.

The PCI spec will be circulated to the Tilt-up Concrete Assoc.(TCA) very soon. I am certain that TCA will utilize the same standards once the TCA members have had a chance to review it in detail.