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Time savings 3D Cad Designs VS Hand drawings 30
- Thread starter designmr
- Start date
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1
- #42
PatCouture
Mechanical
NTME is right on!
I would create an example to be drawn by hand and also done on CAD.
If it's too long to do it live maybe a video of each method would be enough.
Make sure each side start from scratch (For cad have a fresh install without any adapted template or other tools)
Have them do changes.
Also there are a couples of points that comes to my mind.
I guess you don't do much sheetmetal (It would be easy to find example giving a clear advantage to cad.)
If you need to do laser cutting or other numerical operation then you need .dxf or .dwg, It's easy to see the benefits of cad just with that.
Ten years ago it's was difficult to find vendor with cad model but today pretty much everything you need to purchase is modeled in CAD. It's a real time saver.
Also a demonstration of an assembly on CAD with movings parts, exploded views, render, etc. should be very convincing. (If you need those functionalities of course)
It really all depends on what is your current workflow and why is it still in use today, then I'm sure you will find VARs who will be able to match the strong points of the draft boards with CAD while giving up a lot of the downsides.
Then of course there is the implementation and the learning curve from your staff but then again I'm sure the VARs can give you some success story for support.
Patrick
I would create an example to be drawn by hand and also done on CAD.
If it's too long to do it live maybe a video of each method would be enough.
Make sure each side start from scratch (For cad have a fresh install without any adapted template or other tools)
Have them do changes.
Also there are a couples of points that comes to my mind.
I guess you don't do much sheetmetal (It would be easy to find example giving a clear advantage to cad.)
If you need to do laser cutting or other numerical operation then you need .dxf or .dwg, It's easy to see the benefits of cad just with that.
Ten years ago it's was difficult to find vendor with cad model but today pretty much everything you need to purchase is modeled in CAD. It's a real time saver.
Also a demonstration of an assembly on CAD with movings parts, exploded views, render, etc. should be very convincing. (If you need those functionalities of course)
It really all depends on what is your current workflow and why is it still in use today, then I'm sure you will find VARs who will be able to match the strong points of the draft boards with CAD while giving up a lot of the downsides.
Then of course there is the implementation and the learning curve from your staff but then again I'm sure the VARs can give you some success story for support.
Patrick
"I agree. But common sense isn't taught anymore"
I didn't mean only in schools, I meant in general.
Most 'frafters' and 'designers' that I have talked to usually only have AutoCAD experience from a trade school or similar. They none or very little hand drawing experience or training.
If you want someone that knows how to do hand drawings, they have already progressed into the 3D CAD era, or have retired.
Hand drawings (drafting) is pretty much a dead art. If someone does not know 3D CAD these days, they are out of work or switch professions. There are very few companies that have manual drafting anymore. I predict that will go away soon.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
I didn't mean only in schools, I meant in general.
Most 'frafters' and 'designers' that I have talked to usually only have AutoCAD experience from a trade school or similar. They none or very little hand drawing experience or training.
If you want someone that knows how to do hand drawings, they have already progressed into the 3D CAD era, or have retired.
Hand drawings (drafting) is pretty much a dead art. If someone does not know 3D CAD these days, they are out of work or switch professions. There are very few companies that have manual drafting anymore. I predict that will go away soon.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
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- #44
Here's the real world:
I have worked in board drafting environments where we had design/drafting checkers. That was in the days where you were actually allowed time to properly check designs before manufacturing and the bean counters pounded the table with their ridiculous demands. This did not eliminate all mistakes getting to the shop floor, but sure decreased their numbers.
Nowadays, you have a designer/engineer/checker all-in-one role because the bean counters have deemed it necessary to meet the increasingly greedy demands of the president and stockholders. You and I both know that a person who engineers, drafts, and checks his/her own projects is an accident waiting to happen. But the greedy capitalists do not get it. So, on goes the downward spiral until the overly stressed engineer/designer/drafter/checker burns out and is dismissed for being an "incompetent oaf". Phone calls are placed to recruiters, and a new victim, er.. employee is brought in.
And on goes the vicious cycle as the engineering game of musical chairs continues on its way. The greedy stockholders and their knee jerk puppet under-managers never catch any blame and continue to be rewarded.
3D CAD has only made this whole cycle worse. How many have gone into companies where the 3D CAD data is garbage, largely due to the previous guy not having proper time to tie up loose ends on his projects? Geometry that is not dimensionally correct, improper use of GD&T, parameters that are either non-existent for the downstream data users, or are severely in error, etc.
In most organizations, they have seen the investment in 3D along with the hardware and network upgrades that go along with it as "necessary evils" and engineers as expendable.
I have worked in board drafting environments where we had design/drafting checkers. That was in the days where you were actually allowed time to properly check designs before manufacturing and the bean counters pounded the table with their ridiculous demands. This did not eliminate all mistakes getting to the shop floor, but sure decreased their numbers.
Nowadays, you have a designer/engineer/checker all-in-one role because the bean counters have deemed it necessary to meet the increasingly greedy demands of the president and stockholders. You and I both know that a person who engineers, drafts, and checks his/her own projects is an accident waiting to happen. But the greedy capitalists do not get it. So, on goes the downward spiral until the overly stressed engineer/designer/drafter/checker burns out and is dismissed for being an "incompetent oaf". Phone calls are placed to recruiters, and a new victim, er.. employee is brought in.
And on goes the vicious cycle as the engineering game of musical chairs continues on its way. The greedy stockholders and their knee jerk puppet under-managers never catch any blame and continue to be rewarded.
3D CAD has only made this whole cycle worse. How many have gone into companies where the 3D CAD data is garbage, largely due to the previous guy not having proper time to tie up loose ends on his projects? Geometry that is not dimensionally correct, improper use of GD&T, parameters that are either non-existent for the downstream data users, or are severely in error, etc.
In most organizations, they have seen the investment in 3D along with the hardware and network upgrades that go along with it as "necessary evils" and engineers as expendable.
- Thread starter
- #45
DiegoLGraves
Mechanical
designmr, I just got the answer from Deep Thought.
It's 42
Hard to believe 7-1/2 million years have gone by since you first posted the question.
It's 42
Hard to believe 7-1/2 million years have gone by since you first posted the question.
"tz101, CHECKERS, wow, been decades (literally) since I worked at a company with a checker. "
Just worked at a company that used checkers a couple years ago. The design was done on Pro/E workstations and the checkers would plot out E size prints to check with, along with the help of pulling exported .dxf copies of the Pro/E drawings up on their workstations to take electronic measurements with.
I also worked as a design checker at Caterpillar in the 1990's when that company still had some sense about it.
Design checkers really are a necessity that most companies think they can do without. Little do they know the true costs incurred.
Just worked at a company that used checkers a couple years ago. The design was done on Pro/E workstations and the checkers would plot out E size prints to check with, along with the help of pulling exported .dxf copies of the Pro/E drawings up on their workstations to take electronic measurements with.
I also worked as a design checker at Caterpillar in the 1990's when that company still had some sense about it.
Design checkers really are a necessity that most companies think they can do without. Little do they know the true costs incurred.
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- #48
I agree that design (and drawing) checkers really are a necessity.
But, unfortunately some companies cut them out because of cost.
It's ignorance within management.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
But, unfortunately some companies cut them out because of cost.
It's ignorance within management.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
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1
- #49
Theophilus
Mechanical
I generally don't even need 2D drawings for most of what I do (plastic part design, die-cast stuff, commonly swoopy geometry) other than to call out materials, texture, color, and other part data. So once I've got the 3D part, I'm finished (apart from throwing the 3D part into a quick 2D drawing and adding the various call-outs).
But if you do need 2D drawings, consider this. You've often got a minimum of three views, and up to six views, plus sections, plus details, etc. etc. etc. Edit one dimension, and you've got to go through every view to make sure your edit is propagated through everything properly. But if my 2D views are taken from (and linked to) my 3D model, as with SolidWorks, I make the edit to my model and my drawing views are generally up-to-date (ALL of them) with the exception of maybe having to nudge dimensions around to their optimal positions. The huge savings of time in this case is in editing. But I find that to be generally true of almost every project anyway.
OT: Howdy, everyone. Looks like it's been a while since I've posted here.
Jeff Mowry
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.
But if you do need 2D drawings, consider this. You've often got a minimum of three views, and up to six views, plus sections, plus details, etc. etc. etc. Edit one dimension, and you've got to go through every view to make sure your edit is propagated through everything properly. But if my 2D views are taken from (and linked to) my 3D model, as with SolidWorks, I make the edit to my model and my drawing views are generally up-to-date (ALL of them) with the exception of maybe having to nudge dimensions around to their optimal positions. The huge savings of time in this case is in editing. But I find that to be generally true of almost every project anyway.
OT: Howdy, everyone. Looks like it's been a while since I've posted here.
Jeff Mowry
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.
Theophilus,
When I laid out something complicated on a drafting board, I drew an arrangement drawing with station numbers. At some point, the scale drawing would break down, but you would still have good numbers.
ASME Y14.5-2009 still allows you to show off non-scale dimensions by underlining them.
JHG
When I laid out something complicated on a drafting board, I drew an arrangement drawing with station numbers. At some point, the scale drawing would break down, but you would still have good numbers.
ASME Y14.5-2009 still allows you to show off non-scale dimensions by underlining them.
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- #51
My impression is that only about 10% of MCAD users actually know how to use the software, so more time won't help the situation (much).
Note that I am including all users, including "trained" users in my estimate. I come across a lot of users who just don't seem to have an apptitude for this stuff and additional training won't do much to improve the situation.
What do the rest of you think of my estimate?
Any nostalgia I might have for board drawing is offset by the hundreds of bad hand drawings I have seen.
![[bat]](/data/assets/smilies/bat.gif "[bat] [bat]")
Honesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.
-SolidWorks API VB programming help
Honesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.-SolidWorks API VB programming help
- Thread starter
- #53
Well, I see there are ALOT of old time board people here. I can't believe I use to do board drawings in the first place.
Adding a new note between notes 6 and 7, and you had 3 colums of notes. Nothing like trying to squeeze the height and squeeze the width of the notes so you didn't have to redo them all. Ah computer notes, so EASY to add a note...
Adding a new note between notes 6 and 7, and you had 3 colums of notes. Nothing like trying to squeeze the height and squeeze the width of the notes so you didn't have to redo them all. Ah computer notes, so EASY to add a note...
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- #54
- Thread starter
- #55
![[thumbsup2]](/data/assets/smilies/thumbsup2.gif "[thumbsup2] [thumbsup2]")
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- #57
ArtL said:
ArtL said:
Art, this thread is titled "Time savings 3D Cad Designs VS Hand drawings" so you have to expect some mention of board drafting, whether you like it or not. Most of the comments were not reminiscing about "the good old days", just stating factual comparisons.
If that somehow offended you, then maybe you should have read the thread title in its entirety before clicking on the link.
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- #58
With all the talk of common sense on this thread the one question that seems to be missing is what exactly do you intend to use it for?
If it is simply to create drawings like you might see in a catalogue for bolts where dimension A= X etc then I doubt 3D CAD is any quicker or worth the investment, if it is complex 3D modelling or mechanisms with many changes then it is a no brainer.
Just because a car is faster and can do many things a bicycle cannot does not mean that a bicycle is not the best means of transport in certain circumstances, it entirely depends on what you want to use it for.
If it is simply to create drawings like you might see in a catalogue for bolts where dimension A= X etc then I doubt 3D CAD is any quicker or worth the investment, if it is complex 3D modelling or mechanisms with many changes then it is a no brainer.
Just because a car is faster and can do many things a bicycle cannot does not mean that a bicycle is not the best means of transport in certain circumstances, it entirely depends on what you want to use it for.
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- #59
I use to be good at hand drawings, now they shake too much.
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
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1
- #60
EngineerErrant
Mechanical
I don't know if this will help the discussion, but I think it's relevant. I graduated in 2008 with a degree in ME from UC San Diego. Hand drawings aren't even part of the curriculum anymore. We had three CAD/design classes in Pro-E, Autodesk, and Solidworks respectively. They did go over how to read/construct orthographic views & interpret them, but I have never had to use a drafting table or a T-square.
UCSD's whole pitch is that their ME curriculum is closely tied to feedback from the big engineering companies in southern CA (HP, Boeing, etc.) and what they're looking for in recent grads. The obvious conclusion is that there aren't enough companies looking for engineers who still know how to draft by hand to make it worth the students' or professors' time.
Honestly, even taking my educational bias into account, I have a hard time believing that anyone would think that a $5K investment to be able to see your prototypes in 3D space before dumping cash and resources into making them would be overkill...especially if your product is already complex enough to warrant paying an engineer's annual salary.
"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams
UCSD's whole pitch is that their ME curriculum is closely tied to feedback from the big engineering companies in southern CA (HP, Boeing, etc.) and what they're looking for in recent grads. The obvious conclusion is that there aren't enough companies looking for engineers who still know how to draft by hand to make it worth the students' or professors' time.
Honestly, even taking my educational bias into account, I have a hard time believing that anyone would think that a $5K investment to be able to see your prototypes in 3D space before dumping cash and resources into making them would be overkill...especially if your product is already complex enough to warrant paying an engineer's annual salary.
"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams
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