Titles: Engineer vs. Designer 25

[haggis]

This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.

Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.

The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.

At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.

 

[EddyC]

Companies no longer give the new employee the work experience and support that they once did a generation ago. Nowadays the employee is on their own when asked to design something. The USA is also being bombarded with engineer immigrants from 3rd world countries. A lot of work is also being offshored. Licensing is even more critical than it once was before due to these trends. Licensing puts in an additional system of check and balances. Who could possibly be against this?

 

[Speedy1]

Bioengr82,
It seems that you have chip on your shoulder or you feel threatened by accomplished people that don't have a degree. Wasn't it you how brought up the tumor removal by a specialst? I was just making a comparison when you brought up the tumor removal and if you were to ask any doctor that is honest they would tell you that they CANNOT predict the outcome of every time. That is one of the misteries of the human body. As a designer, engineer, machinist, whatever...we have the luxury of having a lot more known than unknown when taking on a project if you just think about materials alone! That aside, you are grossly wrong by saying that I said that engineers and designers got all of our practicing done in school. Read the last post a little more carefully and you would note that I said that our practicing was done in the labs in school OR DURING R&D FOR OUR COMPANIES! READ THE POST BEFORE YOU COMMENT! By the way, I wish not to get into a statistical argument because if I were to say that a cue ball on a pool table was white you would tell me that it is black. My only wish for you is that you learn to respect and acknowledge the the accomplishment of all individuals without predjudice toward their degrees or certifications. Two final comments: 1- Being in aviation, I have the knowledge to say that most aircraft accidents are not because of poor engineering. We aviation people take a ot of pride in that! 2- I can accurately predict the performance of a doctors tools because they were designed by a designer, verified and refined by an engineer, and given to a machinist or some craftsman to build. YEAH FOR US!

 

[Speedy1]

EddyC,
Excellent point! I just think that there are a lot of qualified people that can be licensed but without a standard for the whole country the licensing criteria is very arbitrary. The last handful of post show the differences from state to state. I think that more skilled Americans can fill the jobs that a third world engineer fills now if the standards were to allow a highly trained and skilled person with years of experience take the required tests.

 

[ctopher]

I work with a few "Senior Project Engineers" that are from 3rd world countries. I question if these "Engineers" honestly have real degrees. No common sense or know nothing about materials or mfg. I work with draftsmen that have far more design knowledge than they do! I'm not saying all from those countries are that way, just the several I work with now and have worked with before. They all claim to have BS in Engineering.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[bioengr82]

I don't think the problem is a shortage of "skilled American" engineers. I think foreign engineers do the job for 1/5th the cost. So I'm not sure allowing more people to 'take the required' test will in anyway solve that problem. Also (correct me if I'm wrong), but most of the outsourcing of engr. jobs go to China, India, and the like. These arn't 3rd world nations.

On a related topic, I often hear politicians talk about the need to graduate more students with engineering degrees to compete with other countries where over 30% of grads are engineers. Why do we need to graduate more engineers when we can't fully employ the existing population?

 

[Speedy1]

At last we agree, inpart, on something! The only exception is that I can't think of any instance that a foreign engineer that comes to this country is paid any less than an American with the same experience. If your talking about the salary over seas as compared to the US, then that may be correct. If the ability of more highly skilled people were given the chance to take the "required tests" it would really help in this need for outsourcing. Having my own business, which is primarily manufacturing, I have no need to solicit my services as an engineer. However, in the course of designing and manufacturing products, if there becomes a need for an engineers approval, then I will be able to provide the signature for that product. My name and reputation is on every part that leave my shop so the cost to my customer for my signature as an engineer would cost nothing. I don't even charge anything in addition for my engineer on staff to sign-off a product. It is all part of the job and the price is never inflated due to the need for an engineers signature. For the last 17 years my method has proven very effective and very profitable without the need to fleece the customer. Sure my products cost more than the Chineese made, but, my customers know that I am just a phone call or a quick airplane trip away if they need me and I make myself always available to the customer. I thnk in the days of massive outsourcing to places like China, if we run our companies lean, not penny pinching, and provide superior products and customer service, outsourcing will not be the best option for the "suits" who control the company funds.

 

[ctopher]

I agree. I work with engineers that are from mostly China and 1 is from India, it's the ones from 3rd world countries (do not want to name them here) that is a problem.
Our company is outsourcing more design to India and mfg to China, which IMO will eventually "kill" the company.
We have a very specialized product and our new mngmt is hiring "new" engineers off the street and put to work without proper training.
Because of this, quality is poor and our competition is taking over some of our customers.
Getting a BS in Engineering is getting too easy to come by and alot of companies only require it as a min. To help stay ahead of other countries, maybe only a PE should be req'd. It will help "weed out" incompetent engineers.
I had mentioned in other threads, I feel either our engineering schools need a overhaul or our government needs to step back and take a look at where our future mfg/design is headed. I don't know.
sorry, I'm rambling, it is a big concern of mine.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[MESC1]

I think you've identified the wrong problem. The problem is not a lack of education or training. The problem is apathy. As a generalization, people don't care how good a job they do. As long as the boss isn't yelling, everything is okay.

If you care about the product you produce most educational shortcomings can be overcome by your willingness to learn. I would far rather work with someone who has to ask many questions but is willing to ask than the cowboy who thinks he knows everything because he has a degree.


Thanks
SC

 

[bioengr82]

ctopher:

earlier you stated :

"The degree does make a difference. I do not think a PE is required for all engineering, only for those who work with government projects such as nuclear, civil or whatever is req'd to be signed off by the engineer. I have worked with PE's where engineers with BS's are just as capable or better than the PE's."

and now:

"Getting a BS in Engineering is getting too easy to come by and alot of companies only require it as a min. To help stay ahead of other countries, maybe only a PE should be req'd. It will help "weed out" incompetent engineers."

Are we getting you on the P.E. band wagon? Speedy is invited to!

 

[Speedy1]

Bioengr82,

In response to getting me on the PE band wagon way of thinking, Aint gonna happen! I enjoy being a non-"pedegree" success. If the opprotunity to take the tests to become a PE ever came around for people like me, I would gladly take the tests, but it would not change the way I do things. I mean, why not add one more to the 16 other professional and Federal licenses I currently hold. The only thing that it would show is the fact that I knew what I was doing and talking about all these years to the government by passing "THE" test. My customers, ironically the government in some cases, indicate that they could really care less about a PE license. Wouldn't make me any smarter now, would it?

 

[bioengr82]

Speedy:

Smarter? No it won't. I don't disagree with you that you are probably an expert in your field. And I don't disagree that you could probably pass the test. I understand what point you are trying to make. You wish that you would get the same much earned respect as someone with a degree and equal experience.

But surely you understand society's need to establish a measurable way to gauge one's techincal ability. This does not take away from your accomplishments. However if you refuse to participate in the process I don't see how you can complain. If these tests would be easy why not take them. I understand that finishing your final semester of school would be required and also inconvient but surely the material would be easy for you.

I'm a big fan of taking responsiblity for your actions good or bad. Everything is your choice. You don't HAVE to finish your degree and to become a P.E. You CHOOSE to because you want what it brings. Sitting around and waiting for the system to change until it is convient for you will get you no where fast. If you choose not to persue it fine, but don't complain. If you choose to try and change the system fine, I wish you luck. Finishing your degree and getting a P.E. is fine too. I don't disagree with you on a core level, just the mannor you present it.

You can be the smartest one in the class, but if you don't take the final, you don't get credit for the class.

 

[ctopher]

I agree with Speedy1.
bioengr82,
Probably not. The type of work I do does not require a PE and probably never will. I do not think a PE is neccessary to be an Engineer except under certain circumstances I had mentioned before. But, in the future, I think making it more difficult to become an engineer (requiring a PE license) will weed out incompetent engineers. I don't see this happening for a couple generations.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716