Titles: Engineer vs. Designer 25

[haggis]

This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.

Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.

The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.

At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.

 

[Speedy1]

EddyC,
Here in Kentucky, the board has a requirement of an ABET accredited college degree plus the four years. I have no problem showing ability or knowledge through tests but the fact that they will not recognize ANY experience ( field experience and my 3.5 years from Georgia Tech) without the degree is a bogus regulation. They told me that they are not interested in hearing any case if those requirements have not been met. Do you know of the staes that except experience in lue of a degree?

 

[EddyC]

Speedy1,

I don't know exactly which states will substitute experience for education, but I have heard informally that some will. I suggest that you go to

http://www.ncees.org

and click on Licensing Boards. You will probably have to search all the states yourself. If I find out, I'll let you know. I'd love to see someone with your background become a PE. The engineering community needs more folks from industry to become PEs. It would be good for all of us.

 

[EddyC]

Speedy1,

I took a quick look. For those with no college education, New York wants 12 years of engineering experience. I'm sure that other states are similar.

 

[bioengr82]

Speedy:

Your question to the liscensing board is a matter of ethics and I fail to see how it is relevant to your arguement about degrees and credientals. To me it is not unlike a debate about who may call themselves a doctor and then start to complain about the possibility of a heart surgeon performing brain surgery. What?


Please advise.

 

[Speedy1]

Bioengr82,
It is not a matter of ethics. The analogy of heart and brain surgery I don't get. What I do get is the fact that in today's world there is an increasing amount of "book-smart" people flooding the market place. If you understand the way that learning is achieved- 1-rote, 2-understanding, 3-application, 4-corolation, then you would agree with me that in todays world the majority of people with advanced degrees stop somewhere between 2 and 3. This is where my problem starts when it comes to the level that the government sees more value in a degreed individual and no value in an experienced individual. Education can be had in both the real world AND a college. In this very lawsuit crazy world, anybody could go and file a suit against people like myself and say that we are practicing engineering without a license. The most increadable irony in all of this is that 4 days ago I was asked to participate in a 5 day lecture on the manufacturing and engineering aspects of aerospace products and materials at the university mechanical engineering department, with PAY !!!! All I am saying is that if a individual has the experience and can pass any and all test to obtain a PE if for nothing else to comply with the state regulations, then why not let it be so? I am sure that if you apply this to becoming a brain surgeon, I am quite sure that very few people, other than those who are around it all day long, could actually pass the tests. I just proved my point today. We made a hydraulic valve assembly for a landing gear system and asked an long time experienced electrical engineer, a PE, if he would sign the plans for us. He declined. A six year mechanical engineer was asked the same thing, 2 years with a PE, and he said YES. He also new nothing about what and how it worked but he said that he trusted that the materials used were accurate. Point made.

EddyC,

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate the kind words but I am really nothing special. There are so many great minds out there but they get pushed aside by bogus "one size fits all" type of regulations. I just see this bowing down by the licensing boards to a degree and only a degree to determine who can and who cannot perform as an engineer without reviewing the background experience as a troubling trend. I will admit that the current sitution has worked very well for me both professionally and finacially. However, if this trend is not modified, then a lot of good and talented people will be out of the mix that makes the "sysytem" work. I was just told today that regulations for land surveyors in Kentucky will be going through an overhaul which will require them to have a degree with no grandfathering! Sad isn't it?

 

[patdaly]

Quick question.
If each state PE board has differing admission standards, how can we be sure to have a qualified PE come from the test any more than we can be sure one is qualified from an ABET degree?

Sounds to me like we need a nationwide or worldwide standard established.........

There, that ought to give me time to be taking a dirt nap before it is established.

 

[icelad]

speedy1

Try the U of Alabama or North Dakota. They have ABET eng degrees via distance. I am in agreement about it being hard to go to school once you start to work but I know you can do it. I stared back to school at 40 and am now 51 and getting close to done. Try PPI2PASS.com for state board lic info. I am taking my PE by experince only so I know that can be done also. Hope this helps

John

 

[UcfSE]

Speedy1,

Re: 21 Jul 17:43 post. Did I understand you correctly to say that you asked an electrical engineer to sign and seal a hydraulic assembly, and then found a mechanical engineer who knew nothing of the design but signed and sealed it anyway? Point made indeed, that sounds like a serious breach of ethics, unless I understood your paragraph incorrectly. Is my understanding correct?

 

[bioengr82]

Speedy:

Re: 21 Jul 17:43

I agree with UcfSE that it is a matter of ethics, like I previously stated (contrary to your first sentence). And I still fail to see how the point you were trying to make is relevant to the previous discussion about degrees and credentials (changing the subject?).

 

[Speedy1]

Icelad,
I have contacted the U of Alabama and ND but one of the requirements are that I can be at one of their other campuses and they have video links and taped sessions only at their other sites. I am still pluggin' away though.

UcfSE,
Youd did understand correctly, however, the details were that I did not need a sign-off due to the fact that we were producing the part for a customer per their own design. I did this just to prove my point to two other guys that work for me that are in the same boat, and to prove to that "newbie" that he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does and that he should be strung-up and beaten with a regulation book and his deploma. As punishment, (I agreed to not make it known to his boss, a friend of mine since childhood), he has to spend as much time as needed in my shop until he knows all the processes and reasons that go into the designing, building, and testing of a hydraulic assembly. It is my hope that kid will learn something useful that he wasn't able to get from a book.

 

[icelad]

Speedy1

Try these sites. They are the sites for the distance programs. At Alabama you need to talk to them about the program and how it would help you. I looked in to it. The problem is four of the eng school classes have labs. They had no problem with any other classes. If you have had these at GT you should be able to finish at UA. Otherwise you have to make plans with them on how to do the labs sections of the class. You can take the class part w/o a problem. Added bonus is that the video students are considered in state. ND is $$$$ per hour. What they do for the lab classes is have a couple of days in the summer that you go and have a 'Lab a thon'. I have looked in to this a lot because I have been going for 12 years part time and have spent of time finding the CPM for the working parental student. Any more q's, give me a shout.

http://www.conted.und.edu/ddp/dedp/

and

http://me.eng.ua.edu/undergraduate_programs/distance.asp

John

 

[2dye4]

What is wrong with making the division between
designer and engineer the level of mathematical
knowledge?
An engineer can create a mathematical model of a
process or device and therefore PREDICT the results
of different constructions without having to actually
make and test things. I know there are gillions of
stories about how the smart engineer with their
formulas goofed up the project. But what you do not
hear about are the things done correctly in much less
time than simple trial and error could produce.

So degreed or not the person who can see things in
terms of Calculus and other higher math concepts
is an engineer.

 

[Speedy1]

2dye4,
My thoughts exactly. But, when it comes down to the state government recognition of knowlege and skill to be able to call yourself an engineer, most states only want to see that degree, regardless of prior experience. You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[ctopher]

The problem I see these days, is not the issue of Eng vs Designer or degrees, but finding someone that is competent enough to do the job. IMO, people are getting lazy, or don't care. I have seen this trend in the last 10-15 years. Some of you may not agree, it is just what I see.
IMO, I don't care about the title. The degree does make a difference. I do not think a PE is required for all engineering, only for those who work with government projects such as nuclear, civil or whatever is req'd to be signed off by the engineer. I have worked with PE's where engineers with BS's are just as capable or better than the PE's.
Just my 2 cents.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[Speedy1]

ctopher,
I agree with you about finding someone who is competent enough for the job. I think that part of the reason that you are seeing people as being lazy or that they don't care is, in my opinion, that most people that advance their knowlegde either by getting a degree or by skill training are becoming very narrow toward a very small portion in their field of choice. Just like when I was a kid, we had a family doctor that seemed to know everything and backed-up that observation by his ability to fix any ailment that came along. Those days are gone in favor of the "specialist" in all fields, with the irony being that I haven't see any increase in quality from skills to actual knowledge to the ability to get a once simple job done in reasonable time frame at a good price! It has been my experience, and it seems like you have the same, that there is less of a need for the "specialist". The ability to correlate a variety of skills and knowlegde for a particular job by an individual is where we need to be headed regardless of the type of certificate held. When we,(engineers, designers, machinist, mechanics, etc.)narrow our focus we do our customers and society a great diservice. Advancing our knowlegde is a very horable and responsible action as professionals and should be promoted, encouraged, and be a continuing part of our professional developement. It should not be needed to satisfy government agencies that close their doors on very skilled and knowledgable people. This only promotes the "book-smart specialist". Being especially good in a specific dicipline is good provided you can still function mentally and physically at the other requirement in your field. In my shop we have 2 very good, and expesive, CNC machining centers. Although they are superior in technology to my 1978 Bridgeport, it isn't the choice for most jobs. And so it is with people, which is why a person with a BS, Masters, or Phd., may not always be the right tool for all jobs.

 

[ctopher]

Speedy1, thanks
A star for you

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[bioengr82]

I suppose Speedy and I just have a different way of thinking. When I need tumor removed, I'm going to a specialist. Likewise I hope the building I work in was designed by someone with a P.E.

 

[ctopher]

I hope the building I'm in was designed by a Architect.


Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[Speedy1]

Bioengr82,
Correct me if I am wrong, but, don't the doctors call what they do a practice? And don't we all pride ourselves on the fact that we can predict with a very high level of accuracy the outcome of the intended project before we start? If WE practiced our trades then WE would be out of business! Practicing for us was done during the labs in school or during R&D research for the companies that we work for. I don't think that malpractice lawsuits are too numerous in the engineering world. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. I can tell you on fact...more people die due to doctors every year than by engineers who screw-up. Just a thought.

 

[bioengr82]

Speedy:

I really have difficulty following your thought pattern. To begin with I, again, don't see what doctors happen to call their business has to do with the current discussion. Do you really believe that doctors are practicing on patients, with no idea of the outcome?

Doctor1: hey Bob, give him this and see what happens!
Doctor2: O.K.!

That aside, you then say that we as engineers and designers got all of our practicing done in school (regardless of the fact that a degreed engineer only has 1/2 that of a doctor) and for the COMPANIES that we work for; right after you said that if we practiced our trades then we would be out of business (?!) How can you practice at a company that would be out of business if you do? Also, your cursade to recognize those without degrees would imply that most of the training would be on the job. No? Isn't it practicing if you don't know what you are doing? If you have no degree and no experience how would you predict with ANY accuracy what would happen?

Finally, your comment about more people dying from doctors is misleading and irrelavent. Apples and Oranges. Why not say more people die in cars and planes every year than from doctors. Engineers design those right?