Titles: Engineer vs. Designer 25

[haggis]

This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.

Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.

The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.

At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.

 

[buzzp]

That clarifies it for me. I just could not think of real civil engineering that was would fall under industrial exemption.
That brings up a point of the PE being a general licensure but I am not sure I want a civil engineer designing electrical circuits. Another grey area the boards need to address. It is not necessary to discuss this here.
As far as the schedules, the quicker the better of course and we like to haggle contractors/engineers because we can...LOL. Downtime is money! Thats probably really what the issue is.

 

[ScottyUK]

PatDaly,

The UK employs a philosophy called ALARP in many pieces of safety legislation. ALARP stands for "As Low As Reasonably Practicable". I think the situation you describe could be dealt with under this philosophy, and deciding what consitutes 'reasonable' requires a degree of engineering judgement.



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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[patdaly]

Scotty, I agree for the most part, except I sure as heck do not want the next World Trade centers designed with the ALARP philosiphy. This is the main thrust of my argument, those that design large, one off projects where there is no chance for a redesign should be licensed and of the mindset to engineer it to perfection the first time, no matter the cost. To do so with the typical consumer good is to ask to have your shorts eaten for lunch.

I guess I just dont see where the current laws can be improved unless we denegrate some other facet of our lives ( at least in the US )

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi Pat,

ALARP still applies. The designers of the towers probably didn't expect laden airliners to be flown under full power into the towers. Next time the terrorists might have a nuke. Would designing for that be 'reasonable'? The next twin towers would be end up being a fortified bunker like Cheyenne Mountain if the designers intent was to make them impossible to damage. I've never yet had the luxury of designing a project to a "...no matter the cost." standard.



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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[whyun]

In countries where they have Building Codes for design and construction, the Building Codes prescribe minimum levels of design loads for stability of structures.

Engineers and builders, I would say ALL, follow ALARP philosophy to stay in business because all owners WANT to spend less. Very rarely does an owner request something designed for more than the code requirements even though the added cost may result in added benefit/comfort/etc.

 

[BobPE]

one thing though whyun...we engineers write the codes.....lets not forget that...

Bob

 

[whyun]

true... they are different "breed" of engineers.

 

[fastasleep]

Tick,

Wayyyyy back on June 28th you wrote:

"Wisconsin has provisions for non-degreed PE's Sounds like haggis has more than enough exsperience. I have a friend who teaches a course to prepare non-degreed designers and managers for the exam. Should I sign you up, haggis?"

This is something that I may be interested in. Would you be so kind as to tell me more about this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[TheTick]

For those interested, the site detailing WI's PE reqs is <

http://drl.wi.gov/prof/engi/cred.htm>.

I would highly encourage all "Hardknock U." grads to look up the requirements in your own state. Attaining PE status could be especially rewarding and put many questions regarding validity of one's experience to rest.

 

[dpbehri]

I have driven a locomotive for 12 years. It is with much sadness and regret that I find I can no longer refer to myself as an engineer as that would be deceiving to the public. I am now at a loss as to what I should call myself. I'm leaning towards Train Chauffeur but perhaps you real "engineers" could suggest something better.

 

[ScottyUK]

How about 'train driver'? Like 'truck driver', only for trains...


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If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[IRstuff]

Not to worry; at least in California. You'd fall under the industry exemption, if nothing else. ;-)

TTFN

 

[bioengr82]

Just because you work in the field of engineering, you can not call youself an engineer. Just because you have a degree in engineering, you can not call yourself an engineer. An ENGINEER is a legally defined term for those who are licensed. In the same mannor, just because you have a law degree, you are not a lawyer until you are licensed. For those 'hard knock grads', you may know more about your field than anyone, yet you are not an engineer. A congressmen who has spent his whole life making, writing, and passing laws could know more about the legal system than anyone....but this does not make him a lawyer.

sorry.

I have a degree in engineering, engineer things daily, & have passed the FE. I am NOT an engineer. period. I'll get over it. You should too.

 

[EddyC]

Perhaps someone can enlighten us on the origin of the "engineer" title to describe train drivers/operators? I sure would like to know.

 

[haggis]

EddyC

To the best of my knowledge, eer , in some cases was simply a suffix to describe ones profession.

For instance, in the UK, the locomotive was commonly referred to as the engine and the man who operated this piece of equipment would be the engineer. Oddly enough however, this sees to be US terminology as in the UK he was called a train driver.

The man who holds an auction….auctioneer
The man who drove a chariot……charioteer
Al Capone………………………..racketeer

So our profession has laid claim to the word engineer although most of us in the profession actually have nothing to do with engines of any sort.

 

[EddyC]

haggis,

Very interesting. And you bring up another point: How did we design type folks get to be called "engineers"?

 

[TFL]

From Webster.com

Main Entry: en·gine
Pronunciation: 'en-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English engin, from Middle French, from Latin ingenium natural disposition, talent, from in- + gignere to beget -- more at KIN
1 obsolete a : INGENUITY b : evil contrivance : WILE
2 : something used to effect a purpose : AGENT, INSTRUMENT <mournful and terrible engine of horror and of crime -- E. A. Poe>
3 a : a mechanical tool: as (1) : an instrument or machine of war (2) obsolete : a torture implement b : MACHINERY c : any of various mechanical appliances -- often used in combination <fire engine>
4 : a machine for converting any of various forms of energy into mechanical force and motion; also : a mechanism or object that serves as an energy source <black holes may be the engines for quasars>
5 : a railroad locomotive

AND

Main Entry: en·gi·neer
Pronunciation: "en-j&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: alter. of earlier enginer, from Middle English, alteration of enginour, from Middle French engigneur, from Old French engignier to contrive, from engin
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an appara

 

[haggis]

EddyC

I believe it goes back thousands of years and was derived from the word ingenious or the latin inginium and was adopted as a title for anyone, designers and builders alike who exhibited exceptional skills and craftsmanship in their respective trades.

In the later industrial years, engineer became a widely used title for numerous trades throughout the engineering community as we know it and as you are aware, is still widely used, some say loosly used in the UK, Australia, South Africa and various other areas.

Even various dictionaries are in conflict as to the word's definition and usage. Some say that it can mean "to contrive" or "scheme" as in "he engineered that disaster or assasination plot".

The argument as to who can lawfully use the title will never die and I still disagree with Texas and others who have made it unlawfull to use the word unless you are licensed to perform some fuction in the various fields. Making more difinitive terms unlawfull yes, like "Licensed Structural Engineer - State of Texas" but not one word and thus stripping Casey Jones of his title. My God, he was one of my heroes and he turns out to be an imposter, a misleader of the travelling public!!. Perry Mason would likely have declined the case in fear of indictment for "engineering" a defense strategy that would allow Casey to retain his status as the railroad icon he was

I'm afraid my thread has been reduced to half baked humour...but it's fun.

Haggis

 

[crossframe]

Bioengr82, you say you aren't an engineer, so do you really "'engineer' things daily" or do you "'design' things daily?" Can you "engineer" something if you are not an "engineer?"

Actually, I would say that you can. I think there's a practical definition of engineering, and a legal definition. I found this somewhere on one of the other Forums. Note the chronological progression.

Sample definitions of Engineering

A. M. Wellington (1887)
It would be well if engineering were less generally thought of . . . as the art of constructing. In a certain important sense it is rather the art of not constructing . . . of doing that well with one dollar which any bungler can do with two after a fashion.

S. E. Lindsay (1920)
Engineering is the practice of safe and economic application of the scientific laws governing the forces and materials of nature by means of organization, design, and construction, for the general benefit of mankind.

J. A. L. Waddell, Frank W. Skinner, Wessman (1933)
Engineering is the science and art of efficient dealing with materials and forces . . . it involves the most economic design and execution . . . assuring, when properly performed, the most advantageous combination of accuracy, safety, durability, speed, simplicity, efficiency, and economy possible for the conditions of design and service.

Vanevar Bush (1939)
Engineering. . . in a broad sense. . . is applying science in an economic manner to the needs of mankind.

T. J. Hoover and J. C. L. Fish (1941)
Engineering is the professional and systematic application of science to the efficient utilization of natural resources to produce wealth.

L. M. K. Boelter (1957)
Engineers participate in the activities which make the resources of nature available in a form beneficial to man and provide systems which will perform optimally and economically.

John C. Calhoun, Jr. (1963)
It is the engineer's responsibility to be aware of social needs and to decide how the laws of science can be best adapted through engineering works to fulfill those needs.

The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (1982)
Engineering is the profession in which a knowledge of the mathematical and natural sciences, gained by study, experience, and practice, is applied with judgment to develop ways to utilize, economically, the materials and forces of nature for the benefit of mankind.

A Typical Legal Definition of Engineering
"Professional engineer", within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.

The Profession's Definition of an Engineer
A professional engineer is competent by virtue of his fundamental education and training to apply the scientific method and outlook to the solution of problems and to assume personal responsibility for the development and application of engineering science and techniques especially in research, designing, manufacturing, superintending, and managing. An engineer is a person qualified by aptitude, education, and experience to perform engineering functions.

 

[bioengr82]

crossframe:

I can only assume that was a rhetorical question since that is clearly what I previously stated and you subsequently agreed with.