Titles: Engineer vs. Designer 25

[haggis]

This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.

Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.

The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.

At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.

 

[BobPE]

I fight every day for a stricter definition of the term "engineer." In todays information age it seems that roles of engineers and designers are melding into something that confuses the public. We as engineers cannot let that happen. The public is well suited to demand that the term engineer be protected and have meaning and that is what they have done in some states haggis. This is spreading to other states and is the future.
You have to remember, the public is who we all answer to as engineers, whether in industry or consulting. We guide the public to enact laws that protect them. I cannot see a justification to bestow the same responsibilities to a designer who cannot qualify to be an engineer as defined by the states.

Haggis: you said: " we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it." You don't get to chose, the public does. Don't try to go around the system, face it head on. If you want the term "engineer" to mean something different, take us engineers on and have the public change the law....

Engineers are the custodians of the knowledge societey needs to be safe and to prosper. The public is wise to demad that their engineers meet certain minimum requirements.

Bob

 

[mshimko]

Designer and Engineer both have very broard meaning....depending on your company and field.

In my company & field, "designer" is a term often applied to non-degreed engineers doing drawings (the old-time draftsman, and today's ACAD expert).

I would have thought the term "designer" would imply something higher than "engineer", but in my company/fiel, this is evidently not the case.

Personally, I prefer the use of "technician", or "engineering technician" to describe non-degreed personnel supporting the overall effort (with exceptions for a very few who, through significant experience, may have the equal of a degree).

Thus, my prefered list of descriptors would be:

Technician
Engineer
P.E.

...at least for "conventional" fields, that is. When uyou get into computers, computer software, and IT, there appears to be two new problems:
1. Everyone and anyone who has ever written a line of code can be considered a software engineer, and
2. New terms are being invented and accepted on a roputine basis.

 

[ctopher]

In my company & field, "designer" is a term often applied to non-degreed engineers doing drawings (the old-time draftsman, and today's ACAD expert)

Not all designers are non-degreed, although I know a lot of companies hire non-degreed for the position.
And "...today's ACAD expert" ?! I hope not!
SolidWorks expert is better.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

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[TheTick]

My degree is starting to handicap my intentions to stay in design. Prevailing expectations are that engineers my age move into project management. I'm tempted to hide the fact that I have a degree next time around.

 

[haggis]

Before the replies get too numerous, I’ll respond to some of them.

PSE

It seems we work in totally different environments. Where I work, at a large corporation I might add, the designers do the engineering and the engineers are managers and do absolutely no engineering whatsoever. They prefer it that way as it is a path to climbing the corporate ladder. This suits me and I’m fortunate that they are a good bunch and not standing in line for the credit when the finished product is in operation. Any part of my designs or components thereof can be validated by me in regards to those designs.

patdaly

For me to become a designer in the UK, the companies I worked for required the following practical experience and formal education:

Five years practical, hands- on shop floor experience (age 16 to 21) so that when the designing days came I could design something that could be made and put together.
The designing days were not guaranteed, but at 21 I would at least be a damn good tradesman.
The designing days started at 21 only if I met the following criteria in formal education.
Over the same five year period, part time evenings, I attained an HND (Hons) which I believe is equivalent to 3rd year of a BSc. Yes, there are educational requirements and it was a busy five years.

BobPE

The public are already well protected by the law. The people who work with or in the vicinity of my designs are my public and I too have the knowledge to ensure their health, safety, and well being and I assure you I don’t take this lightly.
In general though, your response was basically self righteous, sanctimonious BS…..don’t confuse that with BSc.

You don’t happen to change in a phone booth by any chance. Do you?

 

[CanuckMiner]

Luckily in most of the jurisdictions that I practise engineering, the title engineer is defined by legislation.

For example, in Ontario, the PEO at

http://www.peo.on.ca

cites

"Under the Professional Engineers Act, the title "engineer" is reserved for licenced professional engineers (except for certain applications such as hoisting engineer and stationary engineers).


More about the Proper Use of Titles

You may use the title "Engineering Intern", "Engineer In Training" or its accepted abbreviation "EIT" if you are registered in PEO's Engineer Internship Training Program. If you would like more information about this program, please contact the association.


Examples of recently revised job titles where the word "Engineer" has been replaced include:

Project Engineer changed to Project Manager, Project Coordinator, Project Analyst, Project Leader, Project Operator, Project Specialist.
Software Engineer to Software Developer, Software Designer, Software Analyst,Technical Engineer to Technical Officer
Junior Engineer to Engineering Trainee or Junior Designer

You may utilize your department name, e.g., Metallurgical Process Engineer to Metallurgical Process Engineering, Quality Assurance Engineer to Quality Assurance Engineering

You may also utilize your engineering degree following your name, e.g. "B.A.Sc.", or "B.Eng."

"Engineering Specialist" is not acceptable.

Titles such as Junior Engineer, Graduate Engineer, Assistant Engineer are not acceptable."



Of course the PEO (and other Canadian jurisdictions) has had a fun time trying to clamp down on those pesky Microsoft Certified Systems "Engineers".

From my point of view, I don't really care. Everyone I work with (colleagues, clients, manufacturers, suppliers, distributors, etc.) has a role to play in making our business tick. Most people don't even know what engineers do for a living. Even when they ask, they're more interested in the places I've traveled to for work, then in the actual work itself.

I have had and read many discussions that improper titles can degrade the profession, but I have not heard any convincing arguments that this is so. Most of the arguments that I've heard do come across as elitist, but then again, I've never really been one to swim with the rest of the school. ;-)

Cheers,
CanuckMiner, P.Eng.

 

[BobPE]

haggis:

Glad I got my point across....If you are confused by my post, well, thats why the forums are here.....we "engineers" will help any way we can....

Bob

 

[EddyC]

The engineer title is more protected by the states than the engineer work itself. 80% of engineering is done by unlicensed individuals. Most of these folks are prohibited from calling themselves engineers according to state law, yet they have the right to perform engineering work, either for industry or for licensed engineers. No wonder its difficult to know when someone is an engineer or not, with this kind of legal inconsistency. Maybe all the states should be like New York, where you are an Professional Engineer if you are licensed and just an Engineer if you are not.

 

[IRstuff]

Not sure I understand that last comment, since that is probably true of all states. No one is allowed to call himself a Professional Engineer unless he is licensed.

TTFN

 

[EddyC]

IRstuff,

In many states, if not most, no one can legally call themselves an engineer, professional or otherwise, unless they are licensed. New York State is more liberal than most and does permit non-PEs to call themselves engineers.

 

[ctopher]

Just for my clarification. If it is illegal, then how do companies get away with having non-PE employees with engineers as their title? I have worked with engineers in the past that didn't have BS or MS.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

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[IRstuff]

In SOME states; most states have industrial exemptions.

TTFN

 

[ctopher]

IRstuff,
thank you

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)

FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[toiap]

I think a clear definition of the titles will only help with all in the profession. I can bet that those in the medical field are not discussing the difference between an RN, a physicians assistant, nurse practitioner and doctor. Nor are lawyers debating the difference between themselves and paralegals. I think that as a profession, engineers, designers and technicians would be better served by having more clearly defined education, experience and certification requirements. This applies even to those working in industry that are exempt from PE requirements. It certainly would help protect us from being considered a commodity and with the loss of jobs due to outsourcing overseas.

 

[EddyC]

In the states that I mentioned, the industrial exemption does indeed allow non-PEs to refer to themselves as engineers, but only within the confines of their place of employment. The moment that you leave the office and interface with the general public, you are not supposed to refer to yourself as an engineer. I don't agree with this, but it is the law in numerous states, New Jersey for one in particular.

 

[ctopher]

toiap,
My wife is a nurse (RN). She worked with a nurse practitioner once that saw herself as a doctor! scary

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)

FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[Heckler]

Chris, what's scary is being in the emergency room having an intern doctor doing the stitches....In this case I would've much appreciated a Nurse Practitioner. Lucky for me the laceration was in a non-critical part of my body. One interesting thing, the intern had an electrical engineering degree.

I think the medical field have their own issues....I think your wife can atest to that.

 

[EngJW]

I don't get it. I have lived in NY, AL, and TN. I have always called myself an engineer and a professional, but I have never called myself a Professional Engineer. Colleges, employers, head hunters, newspapers, and even the exempt classification of the labor laws use the terms engineer and profesional.

I have the degree and the experience and will continue to call myself an engineer, even when the policemen come for me.

 

[BobPE]

EngJW

Your state decides if you can call yourself engineer or not, not you. The fines can be quite substantial in you hold yourself out as an engineer to the public and you do not meet the states requirements.

Bob

 

[EngJW]

Yes, but you are talking (I think) about a licensed professional engineer and I agree that there are most likely penalties if one tries to pass himself off as such. If a degreed engineer can't call himself an engineer, then a lot of us would have been in jail a long time ago.

A license is a requirement in some fields but there are many, many others where it is not necessary. My perspective is from the mechanical engineering side. I imagine that those in civil engineering will have entirely different opinions.