To Tell or Not to Tell, That is the Question!!?? 2

[11echo]

I’m a Piping Designer with over 30 yr.s under my belt. I work for a new company that promotes steam generation projects in the mid-east. The problem I’m having is I’m seeing a lot of design and drafting mistakes on pretty much ALL the dwg.s that are generated out of this office. When this company first started up they were trying to develop a dwg format with a “company title block” …what they came up with was somebody’s idea of a good mechanical dwg. format, in reality it was an architectural title block …information block positioned on the side with rounded corners on the borders. I went it and talk with the lead engineer about this, I told him that if we were just dealing with local area this architectural title block with probably be fine, but now we are getting into projects world wide, and we need to be more “professional” and have a real “mechanical” title block. He agreed, and after battling with the other owners …who like the first title block, they finally accepted it, after 2 months of “discussion”.
Well now I’m working on a pilot project and I’m seeing really poor dwg.s going out, poor design (not wrong but poor) and the drafting is pathetic! AND this doesn’t seem to be an issue with the project engineer! I have pointed out a number of things and he just says “it’s good enough”. SO… we come to my question, do I go back to the lead engineer and point out all this “stuff” …deadlines are looming. Or do I wait till the project is over and go in at that point. Or do I just keep my mouth shut? …They are the owners, if it’s ok with them as is and the clients accept it, why would they care? As I said, I’m “old school” and this type of stuff drives me up a wall!
THX. for letting me vent!! …Mark

 

[ShaggyPE]

11echo,
I too am driven nuts by poor drafting practice. When the statement "it's good enough" comes about, I find that sometimes it is. What I recommend to you is to put aside your desire for immaculate drawings and determine if the prints lack some amount of information or clarity. If the poor drafting practice causes an ambiguity, that area should be clarified. Ultimately it is the function of a print to convey a message, a set of requirements. If it is not crystal clear, someone is liable, or at the very least, there will be a lot of questions from the group actually doing the manufacturing.

-Shaggy

 

[RARWOOD]

I have much the same problem with poor quality drawings. Unless you are responsible or the errors present a life safety problem I would just ignore it.

The firm I work for has reduce the quality of their drawings to save money. I am constanly fighting this trend. On some jobs I just have to accept that the drawings meet the company "standard". On other jobs I will insist that more information is on the drawings because I have to work with them.

 

[RossABQ]

It will be interesting to see if the drawings are issued with yours in good shape and the others in poor shape, and there are a raft of RFI's from the contractor on their prints, but few on yours. Is the work broken out such that that could occur? If it did, it should become obvious to the engineer what's going on, but if not, then I would point it out to him.

 

[ewh]

On projects with looming deadlines, I would just bite my tongue, and as the others have posted, just ensure that sufficient information is given.
How do you check your drawings? Peer review or dedicated checker?
On new projects I would bleed all over the drawings until they are more presentable. I agree that the company should want to put forward a "professional" image. Customers who see poor drawings are likely to wonder what other areas the company produces poorly in. I know I do.

 

[geekEE]

11echo, that's always a grey area between engineers and managers. What is "good enough"? I think it depends on what the possible consequences are of the drawing going out as is. Is it life-threatening? That's a pretty clear cut answer. Is it going to lead to confusion that would end up costing more money to fix? Well, then that has to be weighed against the costs of delaying the project.

You may have heard the expression from management, "sometimes you have to shoot the engineer and release the product". I've been on both sides of the decision and it's not an easy answer. Let your management know your concerns, but don't be surprised if the answer is that it's good enough.

 

[msquared48]

I have been going thru a similar problem helping another firm develop drafting standards. The main problem was the drafters not understanding what they were seeing, and not back-checking the work.

I've also seen a lot of poor plans on Design-Build jobs, incomplete, a lot of mistakes, where drawings, anything, is generated just in order generate a package just to get in line at the local building department. This practice saves time for the owner, but I do not like it as anytime you have to make changes, things will be missed and mistakes made. It is a plan checker's and drafter's nightmare, let alone the design engineer.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[11echo]

Just for clarification, "IF" it was a life threatening situation, I'd be screaming like a gut shot ape!
But these "problems" are more along the line of poor system design (using more materials and labor to get it in) & depiction (drafting is really poor and the system(s) are not clearly documented so again could cause costly construction issues).
On the other hand, with oil at $81 a barrel, money does not seem to be an issue with this client. Bottom-line for me is as EWH had indicate ..."If I see issues drafting issues on drawing, especially high school drafting mistakes, I start to question the engineering design concept". Is this something a new company that wants to deal in the world wide arena needs to address? ...And should I be the "spark plug" for this? ...I can see ALOT on “landmines” with this direction!!!

 

[sundale]

Is anybody putting their name and engineering license "on the line" via a P.E. wet stamp and signature on these drawings?

The engineer of record ultimately deems what is an "OK" or an acceptable drawing by what he/she is willing to stamp under his/her responsible charge as a licensed professional.

If this is work "exempt" from having to be reviewed by a P.E., then it is the company's decision to do crappy drawings and profit from the lesser effort. This is a short sighted goal that will likely have negative consequences in the long term in terms of reputation, change orders and maybe a supoena.

Hopefully, nobody gets hurt (boiled alive like a lobster...) from the poor drawings.

You should keep copies of all the redlines from the checkers/engineers, etc to cover yourself: (from the Latin) "Anus Protectus".

 

[SylvestreW]

Well, are the drawings "poor" or "wrong"? Can errors lead to any serious (money and life) issues? Or is it a matter of asthetics & accepted standards?

Personally, I'd bring up the issue, but not make a big deal of it. At least if the issue ever comes up in the future, you can rest assured people knew the issue.

-
Aercoustics.com

 

[11echo]

SylvestreW ..."poor" or "wrong" ...BOY that a fine line here, in drafting rarely are things black & white, it's more good or bad practice. But actually these drawings are both ...mostly poor, but to such a degree that they are wrong in some areas, because they don't clearly indicated how the piping system is laid out which could generate extra costs. Case in point, one "Sr. Designer" has laid out the underground piping, and he does NOT dimensional indicate all the "events" on the system (branches, change of directions, & clean outs) but he had generated the follow note:
3. Where the piping is not dimensionally tied down or located by coordinates, construction shall install this piping as close as practical to the indicated routing.

...SO, where have you EVER seen a construction note that says "Mr. Contractor do what you want!" …And this is “good enough”!
My question is this …before computer aided drafting, and the disastrous 80’s where big business laid off a lot of good talent, would this type of engineering/design/drafting been “good enough”? …Then why is it now?

 

[Dinosaur]

11echo,

I'm with you on this one. The capability of the designers and drafters working for engineers is going down all the time from when I started. This is largely because the computer makes up for many deficiencies and can make a poor drawing look not so bad at first glance. But I digress ...

I think this is a problem for two reasons. First, because the folks preparing the drawings don't understand what they are drawing, the engineer is the only level of quality control. If the engineer doesn't see a mistake, nobody else will because they don't really understand what they are drawing.

Second, when I am presented with a nasty drawing to review, it is hard to check the meat when there are so many other distractions on the page.

I have had two very superior CADD drafters to work with in my career. If I were still in the business of preparing sheets, I'd do whatever I could to get one or both of them on my team again. Their trained eye and dedicated work ethic helped me get a lot of sheets out when I really needed the help.

Good Luck. I've been there. Can't tell you what to do except to keep your eye out for the good ones and hold on when you find them.

 

[SylvestreW]

11echo, a somewhat familiar story.
I was involved in a project a couple yrs ago where a large exhaust stack (approx. 6' dia) was being delivered via truck. The fab shop hired to make & ship the stack received drawings and when the parts were brought on site, the "roundness" of the stack was lost and long story short, it took ages for the contractors to install the unit (not to mention extra crane time etc).

The contractors wanted recourse and the fab shop was unwilling to pay. Eventually, after some dispute, the shop did agree, and only because buried in a note in a single drawing was the comments "all supplies should be delivered round and true".

I totally understand your point - and I think it's worth alerting the powers that be about the issue (but not forcing anyone to immediately change anything). Once they are aware of the issues and potential costs (e.g. re-locating piping) it's up to the head to decide what to do. If for some reason something does go wrong in the future, you can rest assured you made ppl aware and it was their decision that lead to the problem.

When it comes to dollars, sometimes all we can do is make others aware of a risk and it's someone else's decision to make the call on mitigating the risk.

-
Aercoustics.com

 

[namdac]

Drawings in general I do not have a problem with. I have to check over the work any way so we can eleveate errors in drawings. We have a Plan Deleopment Unit that is suppose to develop the plan set for the Roadway. However, everyone makes mistakes. It is best to do a final looksy to make sure that what you a "wet" stamping is true and correct.
It is up to us to show the less learned technicians, drafters, etc.. How we want our final product to look. This is why we have standards to follow. What I think I hear all of you say is that you need a department that handle all of your drawing needs and details.
And besides, how many of you are still double duty dimension lines? Huh?
Regards,
Namdac

 

[civilperson]

Drawings and plans are communication tools to facilitate the completion of the final product. If the final product comes out fine, then the drawings were "good enough". Some office types think that the plans are the finished product and are in love with historical consistency of drawing techniques. (Please refer to Ralph W. Emerson for the value of consistency.) I once laid out a 16 mile roadway full scale in the field with center line lath just ahead of the motorgrader and less than two hours ahead of the asphalt laydown paver. As-builts were the only paper plans!

 

[MintJulep]

Crappy drawings seem to be a world-wide trend.

I see drawings from many different suppliers from many countries.

They are all crap. I would say that 99% of the drawings that cross my desk errors, omissions, ambiguities and conflicts that are apparent upon only the most cursory review.

I am usually finally forced to accept "good enough" - after several rounds of comments by me and revisions by the vendor.

Nobody knows how to draw anymore. Project engineers don't know how to draw, and thus don't know how to review their team's drawings for errors. Nobody employs drawing checkers anymore.

 

[11echo]

civilperson ..."IF" you're wittingly trying to indicate that you think I'm a prima-donna, and that I think the project "IS" the drawings, you are wrong! However I do claim to be a professional and I "try" to do the best job, with my part of that project, as I can. I question the “attitude” in the chain of a project (engineers/designer/draftsmen/construction) that claim to be professional too, but accept “good enough” and take NO action to fix this issue that seems to face everybody …that knows! …And that boils down to what” I” think is the problem. …NOBODY KNOW’S! It’s that simple! They have not learned, for what every reason, I’m thinking the “great lay-off” of the 80’s AND the introduction of AutoCAD, has chased away the senior talent of this chain and their wisdom was NOT passed down! The few people had are left that still have this wisdom are not strong enough in numbers to correct the problem. This “broken system” has been operating in this manner for about 10 to 14 yr.s …where “Good Enough” is OK! …And it will continue in this fashion, till something happens! …I hope it happens SOON!!!
…AGAIN these are my own ranting & ravings, thanks for letting me vent ...again! …Mark

 

[jmw]

Something to wonder at here, I suspect some similarity between the arrival of the CAD package and the word processor.
In the days of pen and ink created drawings, errors were difficult, time consuming and potentially messy to correct. Greater care in the initial line etc. A bit like "measure twice, cut once" but errors are easy to correct undetectably so would i be right to suspect that some people tend to be more sloppy in their original work and then fail to think it through, clean up or let the machine do its work?
I make the analogy to word processors because, without the spell checkers and on-line grammar checking, the initial results were an apparent drop in standards.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[DaveVikingPE]

This is all going to come to a head really soon.

Drawing is an important engineering skill that should never have been compromised by anything. My own opinion is that it is not compromised by CADD. Not one bit. Presentation of plans is still presentation of plans.

If your firm has a CADD department (mine does not, the engineers do their own drafting - but we have a "process," sort of), then you have no excuse whatsoever for producing poor plans; after all, redlining the heck out of a drawing is all part of QC and such. Keep checking until it really is good enough.

My opinion is that the compromise came from hyper-aggressive schedules combined with engineers moving into management too soon with not enough experience (if any) producing plans. Couple that with those who hold the purse strings simply not appreciating good, quality plans. And especially those who do not understand that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Lawyers have a field day with poor plans. It's too easy for them to point out poor quality plans...

The engineering societies and architectural societies had better get their act together on this.

 

[11echo]

I point at AutoCAD as a “contributing factor” in that when it was introduced two things happened, AutoCAD came in like a wave, senior types left the profession, rather then have to learn a whole new way of doing the job. And you have to remember this was ALL NEW ...not just a small bit. Add in the fact that times were pretty bad in the industry ( mid/late 80’s).
Second thing I point at was management decision to let "computer" people run or manage the new AutoCAD departments! After all this is a computer program, who would know best how to run the department!?? ...THIS turned out to be a VERY disastrous decision! People that had little or no drafting experience now telling drafter/designers with LOTS of experience how to set up drawings! I can't tell you how much inefficiency I've seen under this decision!
Now do I suggest going back to the board!?? ...NO WAY! My lettering was never that good on my best days! BUT the industry NEEDS to standardize the use of AutoCAD in the different disciplines! As it stands now it's by company and there are just too many variables to get this standardizing done. The last thing that needs to happen is the "CAD jockeys"(people that know the CAD system, but don't know how "proper" drawings are put together) ...need to be educated on basic & advanced drafting, so they do how & what to put on a proper drawing. …UNTIL that happens, this problem will NOT go away!