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Toastmasters 1
- Thread starter mielke
- Start date
Twoballcane
Mechanical
Check out Power Talk ( have not taken the course, but I've been to one of their promo seminars and I heard it can change lives. I find TM to be more on the social side (they have chapters, area governors...etc), but still a great media to get over your fear of public speaking.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
GregTirevold
Mechanical
I would hesitate to put things like Toastmasters or Dale Carnegie on a resume.
The reason being that these activities intend to change the way you handle yourself and speak which "should" come across easily in your interview. In other words, if the courses, clubs, etc did their job you won't need to tell anyone, they will just see how well you present yourself. If they comment on how well spoken you seem or how you present yourself well then a short verbal recognition of TM or DC would be appropriate.
The risk you run putting them on your resume is that you don't know what sort of expectation it will create in advance of meeting you. If you are still saying "um", "you know", "well", not looking at them while speaking, and making common fidgety postures they may end up thinking "this guy went through Dale Carnegie? He sure doesn't seem self assured and comfortable speaking. I wonder if he is just not a good learner or if he was even worse before".
As to whether getting involved with one of these programs is worthwhile, you just have to ask yourself if you think you need improvement in that area. Unless you want to get involved for the networking aspects of it which is an entirely separate point.
I think many engineers would benefit from public speaking/confidence training since so many seem to struggle in that area despite being intelligent and having something important to communicate in many circumstances. I personally took classes in secondary school, during my undergraduate degree, participated in programs like Youth in Government (where you take on the role of politician and mock debate on the actual state house floor) and was in involved in Collegiate Kiwanis. Those activities have made me comfortable speaking extemporaneously, or in prepared presentation, in front of 20 or 200 people ever since. I actually wish I got to do more of it in my career but in my current role I just settle for communicating my design intentions well to our fabrication staff.
The reason being that these activities intend to change the way you handle yourself and speak which "should" come across easily in your interview. In other words, if the courses, clubs, etc did their job you won't need to tell anyone, they will just see how well you present yourself. If they comment on how well spoken you seem or how you present yourself well then a short verbal recognition of TM or DC would be appropriate.
The risk you run putting them on your resume is that you don't know what sort of expectation it will create in advance of meeting you. If you are still saying "um", "you know", "well", not looking at them while speaking, and making common fidgety postures they may end up thinking "this guy went through Dale Carnegie? He sure doesn't seem self assured and comfortable speaking. I wonder if he is just not a good learner or if he was even worse before".
As to whether getting involved with one of these programs is worthwhile, you just have to ask yourself if you think you need improvement in that area. Unless you want to get involved for the networking aspects of it which is an entirely separate point.
I think many engineers would benefit from public speaking/confidence training since so many seem to struggle in that area despite being intelligent and having something important to communicate in many circumstances. I personally took classes in secondary school, during my undergraduate degree, participated in programs like Youth in Government (where you take on the role of politician and mock debate on the actual state house floor) and was in involved in Collegiate Kiwanis. Those activities have made me comfortable speaking extemporaneously, or in prepared presentation, in front of 20 or 200 people ever since. I actually wish I got to do more of it in my career but in my current role I just settle for communicating my design intentions well to our fabrication staff.
Hang on, isn't the point of a resume generally to get the interview, rather than directly get the job?
If putting it on your resume might help you get the interview, then surely it's worth the risk much of the time.
If putting it on your resume might help you get the interview, then surely it's worth the risk much of the time.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
GregTirevold
Mechanical
To me TM or DC is not something you list in the same way you mention having a Six Sigma Green Belt, or ASQ certification in some area because it is not something that has regulated results. Public speaking and confidence are fuzzy skills in that there isn't a test to pass typically.
I think a person would be better served by saying they are "comfortable with public speaking" in a cover letter or perhaps listing "public speaking" as a knowledge/skill area that would hopefully elicit a question from the interviewer. Getting them to ask you questions you want to answer and having answers ready that contain surprising or impressive information is what wins in my opinion.
That being said, I certainly can understand why some people would rather lay it all out in the their resume to give them the best chance of landing an interview. To me such an approach when it relates to TC or DC comes off as a bit too "everything and the kitchen sink" type strategy. I take a bit of a different view of resumes in that I think they set the stage for how an interview will go and choose to build off them.
I think a person would be better served by saying they are "comfortable with public speaking" in a cover letter or perhaps listing "public speaking" as a knowledge/skill area that would hopefully elicit a question from the interviewer. Getting them to ask you questions you want to answer and having answers ready that contain surprising or impressive information is what wins in my opinion.
That being said, I certainly can understand why some people would rather lay it all out in the their resume to give them the best chance of landing an interview. To me such an approach when it relates to TC or DC comes off as a bit too "everything and the kitchen sink" type strategy. I take a bit of a different view of resumes in that I think they set the stage for how an interview will go and choose to build off them.
My first exposure was to Dale C. The cost of the program stopped me, and I turned to Toastmasters. I have been ten years on and off with TM. I always put it on the resume. One interview opened with: 'We called because of your TM listing...'
TM was my reference when I applied to an editorial job on an eng magazine. Got the job, and it was a life changing experience. It was refreshing to get an editorial award for high readership on three feature articles after one year. [Readership was determined by the input of a group of readers who rated the articles in rotation.]
Go Toastmsters!
TM was my reference when I applied to an editorial job on an eng magazine. Got the job, and it was a life changing experience. It was refreshing to get an editorial award for high readership on three feature articles after one year. [Readership was determined by the input of a group of readers who rated the articles in rotation.]
Go Toastmsters!
TM is highly beneficial. If you're not sure, give it a test drive. They don't ask for big bucks up front and they don't ask for a lifetime commitment!
As for the resume - if you think it helps to get an interview, put it in. Better if it's in the form of some accomplishment, eg served as club president, won some speaking award, etc.
As for the resume - if you think it helps to get an interview, put it in. Better if it's in the form of some accomplishment, eg served as club president, won some speaking award, etc.
I was a member of Toast Masters for about a year. I think it's a great organization. Low cost, excellent experience, very useful in my professional life. I spend a lot more time talking to people than I do using the differential equations I learned in school.
That said, its a judgement call whether or not you should list it on your resume. If you list other organizations you belong to, add TM to the list. It could be a nice hook that seperates your resume from the other guy's and gets you the interview.
-John
abusementpark
Structural
I've read a couple of Dale Carnegie's books and have found them to very helpful.
I've also found Dale Carnegie's books helpful - except for one thing. DC recommends verbalizing the name of the person to whom you are speaking. Some people do this too much and say someone's name virtually in every sentence. That's downright creepy. One or two times is enough!
Never had a formal ToastMasters course, but way back when my Thermodynamics Laboratory was run in TM fashion because the professor was an advocate. Very useful for young students. It made me realize the utility of public speaking, and helped force me out of my shyness. Wouldn't put it on the resume, though.
Dale Carnegie has some good, useful points also. My father was DC-trained and I suffered through that environment as a kid![[smile]](/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif "[smile] [smile]")
. When I read the books (never attended the class) I had to be selective. I found some of the techniques DC espouses as...manipulative. Filter it, use what's good.
Then, in today's global environment, I think it's important to be culturally-sensitive. For example, from my experience working for a French company and being deeply exposed to French culture, if you come blasting in with DC's Act Enthusiastic and you will BE Enthusiastic!! behavior model, many of my French friends would consider you a Classic Uncultured American Idiot. At least until they get to know you, and that takes time and effort.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
Dale Carnegie has some good, useful points also. My father was DC-trained and I suffered through that environment as a kid
. When I read the books (never attended the class) I had to be selective. I found some of the techniques DC espouses as...manipulative. Filter it, use what's good.Then, in today's global environment, I think it's important to be culturally-sensitive. For example, from my experience working for a French company and being deeply exposed to French culture, if you come blasting in with DC's Act Enthusiastic and you will BE Enthusiastic!! behavior model, many of my French friends would consider you a Classic Uncultured American Idiot. At least until they get to know you, and that takes time and effort.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
SylvestreW
Mechanical
Was a member of TM for almost a yr. It was very good. My public speaking (in my opinion) was quite good but this really helped take it up a notch. You get honest, valuable feedback (which almost never occurs otherwise). And, for people who have no concept of how to prepare a speech to fit in a fixed time slot, you are forced to learn.
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- #15
sodengineer
Civil/Environmental
First, don't confuse Toastmasters with Dale Carnegie. The Carnegie course is a one time shot. Toastmasters is a continuing education. Virtually everyone I know who has completed the Dale Carnegie course has stated thatat the end they tell you to check out Toastmasters. Save yourself a few $thou and just get to a Toastmasters club.
Toastmasters is much less expensive up front, and is a continuous process. As stated above, you will get honest, useable feedback. Most Toastmaster orgainzations meet for one hour per week.
Virtually everyone thinks he/she is a decent speaker, but few really are. Just watch someone running for office, or making a presentation at the office, you will see what I mean.
As an engineer (and I will assume you are, considering this location,) you have spent a lot of your life with your nose in a book, at a workstation, or in a lab. As you proceed in your career, you will spend more time in meetings, presentations, etc. You will most likely be the smartest person in the room, but unless you can (have the skill to) convince others that you really do have the answer, much of your engineering goes to waste. Just because the solution is obvisous to you doesn't mean it is just as obvious to others. Through toastmasters, you will learn to be effective and effecient in your presentations.
WRT putting it on a resume, that is a judgement call. It is indicative of continuing education, but if you don't put it on the resume, all is not lost. The resume gets you the interview, the interview gets you the job. Your Toastmasters experience will show through in the interview.
Full disclosure: I have been involved with Toastmasters for nine years, have achieved the highest award (Distinguished Toastmaster), and have won multi-state speech contests. I currently belong to an english speaking toastmasters club and a spanish speaking club. I don't do much in the spanish club but check timing, but I'm learning the language.
Toastmasters is much less expensive up front, and is a continuous process. As stated above, you will get honest, useable feedback. Most Toastmaster orgainzations meet for one hour per week.
Virtually everyone thinks he/she is a decent speaker, but few really are. Just watch someone running for office, or making a presentation at the office, you will see what I mean.
As an engineer (and I will assume you are, considering this location,) you have spent a lot of your life with your nose in a book, at a workstation, or in a lab. As you proceed in your career, you will spend more time in meetings, presentations, etc. You will most likely be the smartest person in the room, but unless you can (have the skill to) convince others that you really do have the answer, much of your engineering goes to waste. Just because the solution is obvisous to you doesn't mean it is just as obvious to others. Through toastmasters, you will learn to be effective and effecient in your presentations.
WRT putting it on a resume, that is a judgement call. It is indicative of continuing education, but if you don't put it on the resume, all is not lost. The resume gets you the interview, the interview gets you the job. Your Toastmasters experience will show through in the interview.
Full disclosure: I have been involved with Toastmasters for nine years, have achieved the highest award (Distinguished Toastmaster), and have won multi-state speech contests. I currently belong to an english speaking toastmasters club and a spanish speaking club. I don't do much in the spanish club but check timing, but I'm learning the language.
TM has many programs: the basic course, the advanced, and the distinguished TM. The basic gives you all the fundamentals, the advanced gives you the freedom of electives, and the distinguished is for those who help establish new clubs, which I have done several times. TM is both company based and open enrollment in the community.
Case study: I tend to be a public TM, giving speeches to stop-smoking clinics, HS students, and candidate forums. Based on my experience giving eulogies, I wrote the basis for the advance course elective project on eulogies. This kind of endeavor separates the pro from the amateur. Eulogies are consoling to the survivors and good work for the TM.
The annual humorous speech contest and the serious speech contest are worthy functions to attend. Another function is the Youth Leadership Conference that trains HS students in six sessions. Did it once and enjoyed it.
Case study: I tend to be a public TM, giving speeches to stop-smoking clinics, HS students, and candidate forums. Based on my experience giving eulogies, I wrote the basis for the advance course elective project on eulogies. This kind of endeavor separates the pro from the amateur. Eulogies are consoling to the survivors and good work for the TM.
The annual humorous speech contest and the serious speech contest are worthy functions to attend. Another function is the Youth Leadership Conference that trains HS students in six sessions. Did it once and enjoyed it.
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