Toe nailing rafters 1

[DoubleStud]

I have a project where I have those crazy slim overhang roof. It cantilevers 8.5 ft with 75 psf snow load. I end up using W8 steel beam spaced at 5 ft on center (3.5 ft projected with the slope). Then I have 2x8 spaced at 24" o.c. that connect from steel bm to steel bm. I am considering just using toe nails into packed web instead of using gazillion face mount Simpson hangers. The number checks but part of me feel like I should avoid toe nailing rafters. Thoughts?

 

[XR250]

I usually just notch the rafters into the flanges of the beam and then block between them. No beam furring req'd.
Although, on a slope might not be the best idea. I would not worry about hangers. They go up fast if they have a hanger nailer.

 

[DoubleStud]

Hmm.. good idea XR250! May have to do that.

 

[DoubleStud]

I usually just notch the rafters into the flanges of the beam and then block between them. No beam furring req'd.
Although, on a slope might not be the best idea. I would not worry about hangers. They go up fast if they have a hanger nailer.

For the detail I am doing, the wood on top of the steel will not be a nailer. I only nail the plywood to the 2x8 rafters. So if I use hangers, it will be face mount hangers. The roof is 6:12 slope. If we do the notch you were suggesting, they have to notch both top and bottom. They have to do this on a lot of the rafters. Maybe toe nails are easier. What do you think?

 

[XR250]

I'd probably just go with hangers on a 6:12 pitch. My idea works good for floor joists into flush I-beams. Yes, you have to notch top and bottom.

 

[DoubleStud]

So you also dislike toe nailing?

 

[Ron247]

Upon reading your post, but not having a sketch to see, if you are butting the 2x8 rafters into a band, beam or packing, I thought the code requires a 2x2 nailer or hangers. I thought facenailing of any kind was no longer accepted. Am I not picturing this right?

 

[XR250]

So you also dislike toe nailing?

I use it frequently for shed roof rafters abutting a house wall but for 75 psf snow, I think I would use hangers

 

[gte447f]

I think @Ron247 is right. I think code generally requires joists/rafters to bear on wood, steel, concrete, or masonry, or be supported by metal hangers, but I guess if you have an engineered alternative you might be ok.

 

[DoubleStud]

I use it frequently for shed roof rafters abutting a house wall but for 75 psf snow, I think I would use hangers

Yes I was thinking like that too.. but the rafters are only 5 ft long, that's why I am second guessing myself.

 

[DoubleStud]

Upon reading your post, but not having a sketch to see, if you are butting the 2x8 rafters into a band, beam or packing, I thought the code requires a 2x2 nailer or hangers. I thought facenailing of any kind was no longer accepted. Am I not picturing this right?

Can you point me where that is? If NDS has values for toe nailing, I don't see how that is not allowed?

 

[Ron247]

It is from the IRC code. I know it is in "Floor Framing" but not sure about roof framing. Due to the loadings you cited and what I am picturing, I think building inspectors might apply it to your situation. I had an oddball roof one time and had to use them on some rafters that ran parallel to the eave between two existing supports. It was a small roof, so it was not a real issue. Also it was my own house.

I briefly looked in the Roof Framing and have not seen a direct reference whereas it is in Floor Framing. They do have some "bearing rules" in the roof framing. I don't think NDS has a rule against it.

 

[jerseyshore]

Toe nailing would never be passed by an inspector around here for a structural member.

Hangers are like $1.25 a piece. Engineering something to use in place of them seems like it'll cost the client way more.

 

[GaStruct]

I personally use hangers for rafters on ridge beams but I'm not aware of any code that prohibits toe nails for rafters specifically. Most non-engineered houses use toe nails even when it's not a tied system.

NDS has a technical paper on toe nails, although it's for stud connection to sill....so not really making the case that toe nails should be used for rafters. Link

IMO this comes down to engineering judgment. If you can make the numbers work and feel good about it, then I don't see an issue. After all, this is where engineering becomes valuable.

 

[Ron247]

The use of toenails at a ridge board is common and allowed everywhere I have been, but a ridge board is not much if any of a structural member, it does not hold the end of a rafter up unlike a ridge beam.

 

[gte447f]

The specific code references in the IRC (2018) are "R502.6 Bearing" for floor joists and "R802.6 Bearing" for roof rafters and ceiling joists. However, if its an engineered design with a stamp, I see no reason why toenails would or should be prohibited, although the quality of toenail connections in practice is notoriously terrible, then add to that any chance for long term deterioration of materials due to water intrusion, rot, etc. would make their performance exceptionally terrible, and I can see why the prescriptive code does not permit toenail connections, so beware.