Too old at 50 8

[chris9]

I know an engineering manager who was made redundant at the age of 50. He tried for six months to find a similar position but was eventually forced into driving taxis to support his family. He has now started up his own taxi firm and is doing OK.

I don’t think this is an isolated case. I am in my early thirties and every time I attend engineering meetings with other companies I find myself surrounded by other people who are of a similar age.

I believe I have around 20 years left before I too become unemployable. Why don’t employers value the older experienced engineer?

 

[zdas04]

I think it depends on what you've done with a career. I retired from a major Oil & Gas company at 50 years and 2 weeks old to start my own consulting business. A year later, it is a rare week that I don't get a job offer from a client or potential client. They don't see me as too old and I'm staying pretty busy adding my grey-headed experience to the community of pup engineers in several companies.

On the other hand I knew a guy who left the same company a few months before I did at the same age. He spent his career doing his job, and doing it pretty well. He never wrote any papers for engineering societies, never bothered to get his PE, and never butted into operations outside of his responsibility. A year later he's getting pretty frustrated with his job search.

We were both highly-rated engineers. The biggest difference I see is that I took more control of my CV than he did. I wrote papers both because I enjoy it and because I felt I needed the exposure. I took on many "hopeless" projects and succeeded in most of them. I I sought out contacts outside my business unit. I helped organize a field-facilities network and was a frequent contributor. I never missed a chance to present a technical paper at internal conferences. I got a reputation from management as an effective, innovative technical guy with zero interest in their jobs.

He doesn't like writing papers, hates doing presentations, and doesn't mix well with new people.

The way I see it, there's a right way and a wrong way to find yourself 50-years old in industry.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The Plural of "anecdote" is not "data"

 

[metengr]

At our company (Independent Power Producer) I have seen data that shows our work force is at an average age of 47. We have approximately 1200 employees (consisting of management and union). Some background information - the company I am employed with has been in business only 5 years but started out having purchased generation assets from a traditional electric utility.

What I have not seen in the last 5 years is any early retirement packages or incentives to "gently" push aged employees out the door. Prior to our company being formed, we were affiliated with an electric utility that routinely offered generous retirement packages as a way to purge the work force and bring in new blood.

We have not hired any new engineers to replace those that have resigned or were laid off because of conflicting goals. What I see at our company presently is a retention of aged employees because they can't afford to hire and train new employees. In the past, our electric utility had a specific succession plan to train new engineers that would eventually take the place of aged engineers.

Considering the need to show profitability and performance in our current business climate, our upper management decided it wants to run lean and mean so they are retaining aged employees. Of course this could all change during the next 5 year business cycle.

 

[corus]

Employer's like to recruit those in their 20s as they're cheap and they won't be a threat to the manager who is employing them.

At over 35 you're assumed to be either burnt out or if you're looking for a job then you can't-have-been-much-good-in-the-previous-one-so-you're-not-worth-employing-anyway.

Over 50 you obviously have years of experience, have shown ability to take on new technologies, have learnt from your mistakes and are thus able to work quickly, have knowledge on a wide range of subjects, are well qualified, and have good contacts in the business. Obviously you'd also be a threat to the manager who might just be shown to be not as good as he makes out. Needless to say, you're unemployable, except at garden centres or DIY shops, perhaps.



corus

 

[Lorentz]

Hello All!

I think corus is correct in that most large companies prefer entry level employees to be in their 20s.

However, smaller companies might welcome an experienced engineer. It depends how transferable the engineer's skill set is. Correct me if I am wrong, but my guess is that the manager in question had done bureaucratic work for so long that he was no longer qualified to do anything else, and was therefore expendable.

But if the former manager is happy running his own taxi company, the question is moot.

In your own case chris9, take a look at your own skill set and try to think of how many other companies might need you, or ask yourself if you could go the self employment route if you had to.

 

[davefitz]

There are other issues with employing older workers.

First there is the distinction between employing a person as a regular employee ( with company sponsored benefits and legal liabilities re: later firing for age discrimination) and hiring the person thru a temp agency as a contract worker or consultant. In the former case, the company may have wet feet due to past problems with older persons( ie , higher insurance premiums, less flexibiliy to fire due to age discrimination). Some companies have faced these issues successfully and have few reservatinos about oler workers, while others may prefer to hire the older worker thur a temp agency so as to avoid these issues.

Secondly , there is a tradeoff between the older worker havig more experience and maturity vs being less productive in areas that may involve new technology. I guess if teh job is fast paced and involves prducing a lot of work quicly with new techolgy, the younger worker wins out, but if familiarity with the olde technology and design codes is of importance then the older worker wins out.

 

[moltenmetal]

Our firm tends to hire younger people:

- because we're cheap- older people tend to expect more money than younger ones

- because we're a specialist business, and although older people come with experience (good), it's often inapplicable to our business. They also tend to come with established mindsets (i.e. "this is the way things are done!"), whereas we have our own ideas about how we want things done.

- because we KEEP our core staff through thick and thin, and they don't leave voluntarily, so we've got enough gray hair to go around already

It greatly depends on the type of business you're in. Engineers in the services business (consulting engineers, corporate engineering group people etc.) tend to get greyed out of a job during down-sizing because their pay level makes them prime targets. And because we engineers in general do a poor job of communicating our value in dollars and cents to the moneybags and beancounters who run the organizations we work for.

I've met quite a few engineers who have been forced into becoming sole practitioners in independent practice because they can't find an equivalent position elsewhere after being down-sized out of a job. For some that works out fine- for some it's WAY better than slaving for a consulting firm who pays 20% less than an equivalent position in industry- for others it's a disaster. As zdas04 so eloquently says, it depends on whether you've put some effort into developing client service and sales skills, networking and a profile beyond your own organization, or if you're just a cog in the larger organizational machine.

In Canada, the very toughest time is experienced by recent immigrants with significant experience outside their new country. Finding that first job is very, very tough, because they're being out-competed for limited positions by people who already have significant Canadian experience.

This tendency to lay off older folks is not balanced by a tendency to hire recent grads, either, because firms don't want to mentor new employees. Recent grads are finding it hard to get that all-important first job after school too.

If we did a better job of managing supply in this profession, there'd be jobs for everybody. But as it stands, in a situation of over-supply, it's a buyer's market, and everybody on the supply side suffers.

 

[oceanamber]

There is a place for the over 50 in the industry but in my opinion he needs to keep his/her skills current. CAD killed a lot of older engineers off because they couldn't bend or didn't want to bend to new technology.

Chances are at 50 you have moved up the ladder to a middle manaegment role and in doing so have started to lose your key skills. Its probably human nature to manage a project and let someone else take the strain but if everyone ends up in the job pool the smaller companies can't afford to carry a middle management team.

By the time you get to 50 you should have enough experience and as ZDAS04 pointed out enough contacts to remain in work.

Luckily I'm not 50 yet but its getting close!

 

[arunmrao]

I am at the threshold of being 50(a few weeks away). Time flies!!. I find that engineers at this age carry a heavy baggage around them.

A sense of insecurity perhaps descends . They are brilliant individually, but are unable to carry along as a team. It is a social disaster I would say. There has been so much of investment done by the society and the employer and now they are redundant.

Sensing some of these inadequacies about 10 years ago I quit a comfortable job and started out the hardway by setting up a small steel foundry. Now I am settled leaving behind most of the battle scars and hope to carry on for a life time.

Here my experience and contacts come into play. No ego bags or sense of insecurity and people respect for whatever little I do. Intellectually and physically I am active( I carry a few ladles of liquid metal just to check I am fit and teach the youngsters the dignity of labor).

I feel that there are lots of opportunities still available provided we keep an open mind and are willing to accept and respect others views.

 

[jmw]

One major company had a definate policy of "euthenasia" for older employees until a senior director put a stop to it. He described the policy of ejecting older (and long term) employees as "Corporate Amnesia".

Sadly, many companies, for whatever real or imaginary reason, have problems with older employees.

"Age-ism" is as much to be deplored as any other discriminatory practise but is not something that appears to be taken seriously by legislators when they enact the laws.

When was the last time you heard of a lawsuit based on age discrimination? how frequent a case is it compared to other discrimination suits for race, religion, sex etc? (excluding sexual harrasment cases which are good earners for lawyers).

There are many good things to be said for the more mature and experienced employee, the best of which is that in many countries the population is aging and no-one has yet thought to say that just as you have to be over a certain age to vote, you also have to be below a certain age as well. So, no matter how old you are, you can still vote, and in an aging population this means politicians are starting to recognise that over 50's are suddenly a very powerful voting block.

So, if age discrimination is a problem, then voting power is one way to address it.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[sms]

chris9 writes "I believe I have around 20 years left before I too become unemployable. Why don’t employers value the older experienced engineer?"

This is complete and utter nonsense. My employer values older experienced engineers. We have many, Just in my work group we have three 57 year olds and a 66 year old. Just because this one guy got laid off you think that you won't be employed past 50? That is crazy. The last two companies I worked for we had several engineers retire in their late 50s and early 60s who were back at their desks part time within a few weeks of retirement, getting paid consultants wages and working only the hours they wanted to. When my Dad retired at 62, a year later his company was begging him to come back for a few days a month in order to mentor the youngsters in the organization.

Man I am getting really tired of all the negative vibes around here... I may just have to drop this forum and go back to the technical areas. I don't think I can stomach you all having this great big pity party any more.

 

[HgTX]

This time I'm on the negative side too...age discrimination is real--real enough that it's been made illegal. However, proving that age is the only reason someone wasn't hired is pretty difficult.

The cases sms describes are understandable--these are not new guys coming in cold, they are people who have been there for a while, who were hired when they were younger. Rehiring retirees is the same situation only with a little more bookkeeping. But keeping a job is not the same as getting a brand-new one. When you already know the person, then you think about what they've been doing and how much you want to keep them. When you're looking at a new person, that's where you have to try to characterize them based on the little that you know, and you're comparing them to lots of other applicants.

Younger people do have an easier time finding jobs. As others have mentioned, they're considered to be more trainable, it's assumed they'll work for lower wages (I never understood that one--make the same offer, young or old, and if the older one won't take it, that's their problem), and (ignoring the fact that no one sticks around their jobs for very long any more) the employer could expect more productive years out of them after the intial training investment.

It's even worse for women--at least there are plenty of powerful and respected middle-aged male CEOs out there, 70-year-old sex symbols, etc. Far fewer postive images of middle-aged women. No one ever says that grey hair makes a woman look "distinguished". (Though at least women are more likely to get away with some hair dye.)

My mother was laid off at 50 and passed for 40. Took all the dates off her degrees on the resume, deleted the job history that preceded her career change. It worked. She was laid off again at 60; passing for 50 just doesn't cut it. Part of it's the economy, but part of it is her age. She should be retiring, not looking for a job, and anyone who hires her, even if they think she's only 50, could reasonably think that she's going to want to retire in only 10 years.

Getting hired post-retirement as a consultant with one's old contacts (or going to work directly for them) is the most reliable formula I can think of for getting a new job in late middle age. But that means keeping that in mind in the years leading up to retirement, building those contacts, making yourself into someone who will be very much missed upon retirement. It means never really getting out of the game. An unexpected layoff 10 years ahead of time will eliminate that opportunity.

Hg

 

[ProEDesigner00]

Greetings

I spent 16 yrs in the tool and die design and build industry as a tool maker. Learned how and managed 3 shops in my later yrs of being in this industry. Over the last 5 yrs I learned a 3-D software package and become a "specialist" with that package. (Like tool making if you can make yourself indispensable at something you will have retention and change at your discretion not the employers. I went to school and optained my A.A.S. in tool design and build.)

Through out the entire time from the mid 80's to today I see companies doing one major thing, that is moving away from hiring someone that wants to stay with the company for a 25-35yr career in which they have to expend a retirement package. So these companies (in general)hire these rookies that will want to come in get 3-5 yrs of expereince to fluff a resume then move on to where their interests have grown. They then hire select individuals to come into that have 5-15 yrs of experience for mid project managment positons that they will only be there untill they are in their mid 50's and still not having to pay a pension to because of the number of years of service. then they fill in with us contract specialist to get the work done. They put out above average hourly rates for us but that expense is shown on a differnt expense line at tax time and they do not have the Beni package to pay out for us.

I am 42 and am in my prime of skill and knowlege however never being stuborn to realize I dont know every thing and there is allways a new or different way to do something. I went into the temp contract arena. I located myself into a region that I am with in 4-5 hr drive to most of the "old industrial" cities that require someone with my experience. I portait myself that I am flexible and always willing to learn new and am respectful of others opinions regardless of how silly I think it is. I then communicate in such away to negotiate in favor of the ability to complete what ever goals set before me, whether I am project lead person or grunt. As I see myself getting older I have goals and work at meeting them. I learn continually from others skills that help me accomplish what I am striving for. MY END GOAL IS SELFPROFFICIENCY ie consumer product manufacturer that will bring in residual income. I will be posting the results of my products in other subject forums on this site. I am with in weeks of being on my own!!!

So in conclusion I believe as stated by several before me in this post that you have to be aggressive but not vain and be very flexible. I find tremendous value in this forum and am glad to be able to participate.

Have a great day

Norb.


"It takes a big dog to weigh a ton. God forbide the days inwhich it doesn't!" Norb Gruman

 

[ProEDesigner00]

Geeesh I thought the star I recieved from another post would be present with my name on this post. hmmmmmm trying to figure this one out.

 

[HgTX]

The star isn't for you, it's for your post. I get multiple stars on some posts and get red-flagged for others (one of which I'm still puzzling over).

Hg

 

[ProEDesigner00]

HgTX

Thanks. I appreciate the info

Norb.

 

[HaroldW]

Where is the reasoning for companies to employee those guys who want to, as ProEDesigner00 says, "fluff" up their resumes? How can they win in the long run when just as those guys become proficient, they turnaround to leave to greener pastures (and I can't blame them). The company then has to hire on someone else, at no doubt a higher rate to achieve the same results, where's the cost savings in that if they have to do that time and time again. Why does good old commonsense and tried and proved experience always come in second place to theoretical experience yet to proved in the real world? Not all of us are set in our ways and do see the value of swinging with change and keeping up the latest trends. I guess it's just a matter of how we all sell ourselves.
ProEDesigner00: Would be interested to know of how your products go and if you achieve self-proficiency. Pls advise me of your postings.

 

[GOTWW]

I think that the CEO, is first and foremost worried about the next quarter's profit and stock price. This is his life blood, nothing else matters.

 

[HgTX]

Yup. Costs over later years are irrelevant. (Kinda like trying to include life-cycle maintenance costs for one engineering choice over another when it means a higher immediate cost--the CEO or the legislature or whoever is in charge doesn't look beyond the end of their current term, next stockholder meeting, whatever.)

Hg

 

[HaroldW]

Yep, guess you guys are right. Doesn't always pay to be involved in the companies that have high turnovers and shareholder responsibilities, where employees just seem to be another number. It would be great if smaller companies could exist out there against these types of firms, at their own game. But some can't because they don't have the mass buying power. No doubt the smaller companies out there that do have pride in their staff abilities - irrespective of age. Probably, no definitely, few and far between and when found are more specialised in just one aspect of the game than the whole picture. Gone are the days, I believe, where the smaller business can enjoy a project from start to finish without having to out-source part of the process.