Use of PE after name 9

[NateB]

I am a registered professional engineer in a handful of states. Recently our office came across some articles that reference ethical issues surrounding the use of P.E. after the engineer's name. The idea is that the use of these initials can be misconstrued as registration in a state that an engineer is not licensed in.

For example, John Doe P.E., registered only in Maryland, gives his business card to a potential client in West Virginia. Clearly, soliciting work by falsely claiming that you are registered in WV is unethical; however, what if John Doe's business card has a MD address and John's office has engineers who are registered in WV.

Additionally, is it unethical to use P.E. on correspondence (letters, emails, etc.) for a project in a state in which the engineer is not registered? This would apply in the common case of a project manager who does the bulk of the design and contract administration work on a project but does not stamp the contract documents. Most of the correspondence will be written and signed by the project manager and will likely not require a seal and signature. This leads to a situation where the project manager will be placing their name and P.E. on correspondence in relation to a project in a state in which they are not registered. The PM at that point is not claiming to be registered in the state, but is a licensed professional in the state in which their design office is located and in the state shown on the letter head (or email).

We have read articles that suggest listing states of licensure after the name of the engineer as a way to clearly define licensure and avoid a misunderstanding. However, providing a list of states can also be detrimental to an engineering firm. The firm's clients may see states that are not listed and no longer feel comfortable using a particular engineer at that firm. However, not all engineers at one firm need to be registered in all states where they practice engineering. Not to mention, for some engineers a list of states would not fit on a business card.

I would appreciate any feedback on this issue.

Additional reading on this attached.

 

[StressGuy]

Wouldn't that ultimately depend upon who the governing body was for the project? If the work is done under the auspices of the EPA or some other Federal agency on Federal property, then the state licensing requirements wouldn't apply. I'd have to dig for it, but I recall the Texas PE code having something specific about addressing work done "in" the state, but on federal property (such as a post office or military base).

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

 

[djs]

Ah LAHD or Local Authority having Jurisdiction. In other words the people you have to get the permits from. Again get final inspection. They determine whether sealed drawings are necessary and also what codes apply. For example many public entities have not yet accepted the latest NEC.

 

[stevenal]

SPCC are not done for the EPA, they are done for an entity that needs to comply with the EPA SPCC laws. Some may be federal agencies, but most are not.

 

[RacingAZ]

As a side topic to this thread, I've seen some SE's putting the PE,SE title after their name even though they are only licensed as a SE in 1 state and as a PE in another. Is that really appropriate? Not really sure that's why I'm asking.

 

[FSS]

Just saw a card today with M.S. on it as well as the P.E. I asked about it and he said it was for his Masters degree. I guess I need to add me some new letters to my card as well.....

 

[JLSeagull]

Perhaps MS or PhD may add something. Advanced degrees provide better initial income potential.

Some people like titles and certificates. Business cards include titles like senior engineer, senior staff engineer, senior principal engineer, etc. Such titles mean nothing. Some people buy additional certificates such as project management. The certificates lack the established national and state boards, examination and state enforcement rules. I am nots impressed by such certificates. Including P.E. after your name is enough for me. OK, list the states too.

 

[GregLocock]

"Advanced degrees provide better initial income potential."

Except in Australia, every time I checked. Actually there is a bit of a trend that Masters aren't quite the mark of Cain that they used to be, but a PhD is a guarantee of a low average starting salary, for engineers.





Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[zdas04]

Greg,
Doesn't that depend on experience? In the states, someone with an MS or PhD looking for their first Engineering job is subject to finding a very limited market and probably low salary unless they stumble into the perfect niche. On the other hand, someone with 10 years Engineering experience seems to get paid a premium for an advanced degree. Is Oz really that much of a "horse of a different color"?

David

 

[BJC]

I have done work for the goverment and they wanted a PE to do it. Didn't matter where the PE was just as long as I had one. Work on a federal installation is exempt from state laws ( I know I am probalby starting an argument). they required a stamp on work I have done on federal installations overseas.

If your bidding a job in a state where you don't have a PE read the rules or call the board. Most will allow you to a and issue a temporary conditional license ( for mere money).

 

[Ron]

FSS...you'd have to use the back,too!!

A lot of the advanced degree argument depends on the discipline and the job. In most practical applications, the Master's degree is somewhat of a peak, with the PhD sometimes being an impediment. In academia of course, the more the better.

If the job is in manufacturing, general consulting, or field applications, the PhD doesn't seem to help. In research or academia, where they get grants based on paper qualifications, the PhD is gold.

 

[GregLocock]

Key word is "initial". According to the annual survey in The Australian's Higher Ed Supplement, starting salaries for ex PhDs are lower than for BEngs, in engineering. I can imagine 2 reasons. First, mining pays the big bucks, employs enough engineers to strongly affect the average, and probably tend to take fewer PhDs.

Secondly, perpetual students probably get attracted to staying on at uni, and when they are finally forced out into the real world have to settle for what they can get, as they blink in the sunlight.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[NateB]

RacingAZ,
I beleive that the use of PE, SE is appropriate. This means that the engineer has not simply passed the civil or SE1 exam, but has minimally passed both the SE1 and SE2 exams... a much greater acheivement. The use of SE is a perk of passing both exams and satisfying the licensing requirements of a state that licenses by disipline, something to be proud of.

Naturally one can only use SE if they are registered in a state that liceneses SE's. Additionally, using just SE could be misleading since not all states recognize disiplines.

This is my take, but I could be convinced otherwise.

 

[dstan02]

If your an engineer that has earned their PE, use it just like a doctor. All your saying is "hey, I have my PE".

 

[mauricestoker]

You can imply or assume anything that you want. If someone from Maryland provides a business card to a person in West Virginia, has P.E. on it, and "MD" is assumed to mean "medical doctor" and not "Maryland", well I guess being we have plenty of lawyers means that they could still be sued. What basis is their to make a reasonable presumption that the person is registered in WV, or for that matter, in any specific State? Did they wear a "greenttooth" instead of a "bluettooth"? Did he invite you over to burn a couch on his lawn at the next home football game? Did he ask you what every teenage boy in WV and Lebron James have in common?

Maybe it was a poor example. I'm from WV and work with lots of PE's in MD, DC, PA, VA, etc. If someone has "PE" and "PA" on their business card, I don't presume and invite them to the family reunion.

 

[JLSeagull]

My engineering organization often include the PE abbreviation in conference notes when referring to Project Engineer or Process Engineer. I notice it without getting twisted.

Outside of the civil structural discipline perhaps few would know the meaning of SE on a business card. Perhaps SE would be more notable if I were in the highway or mining business instead of the oil/gas/petrochemical business.

 

[McLovin]

In most circumstances you DO need to include which state(s) you are licensed in. The early example by Zdas04 could get him in trouble.

Specifically, The state of Wyoming requires that the company the engineer works for hold a Certificate of Authorization from the board prior to offering any engineering services (there is also a mandatory requirement that at least one owner or principal must be a PE licensed in WY). In addition, WY restricts the use of key terms "professional engineer", "registered engineer", "licensed engineer", etc. If you even *verbally* use these terms in solicitations for work, you are violating their policy and are subject to discipline. Most likely you'll get a slap on the wrist for it, but any disciplinary action is then reported to the NCEES Enforcement Exchange and can lead to further disciplinary action in other participating states.

Each state also defines what "engineering" consists of via state statue(s). In Wyoming:

""Engineering practice" means professional service or work requiring engineering education, training and experience and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to the professional services or creative work as consultation, research investigation, teaching, evaluation, planning, surveying practice as defined in subparagraphs (vii)(D) and (E) of this subsection, design, location, development and review of construction for conformance with contract documents and design, in connection with any public or private utility, structure, building, machine, equipment, process, work or project. A person shall be deemed to be practicing or offering to practice engineering if he practices any branch of the profession of engineering, or by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or any other manner represents himself to be a professional engineer, or quotes fees for professional engineering services, or executes contracts or agreements for professional engineering services or holds himself out as able to perform or does perform any engineering service recognized by the board as engineering;"

Each state has its own set of rules. You can look them up as needed or simply clarify your title. Personally, I don't call myself a PE unless I have to.

 

[brandoncdg]

That Doogie Houser comment was funny!

So Engineers are held to a higher standard than a Doctor or Lawyer? Please engineers stop the madness!

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[JLSeagull]

I understand your question regarding physician certification; different story for those with a JD - or is it a DJ?

 

[NateB]

Since posting I have done some additional research and have found a way of dealing with this issue that makes me comfortable, since there is obviously no black and white answer.

Many people say that as long as your buisness address is listed along with your name, then the use of PE is assumed to be for the state in which your buisness is located. Our firm happends to be in MD, a state I am registered in. So all coorespondence, and naturally our buisness cards, list the address of a state that I am registered in.

If I were NOT registered in MD I would need to say so. For example, if I were only registered in VA then I would need a statement under my name to clarify that I am not registered in MD. Something like this:

Nateb, PE
Not registered in MD

Alternatively, I guess you could list the states you ARE regiestered in, but this could get annoying if you are an engineer that adds new registrations frequently.

I happen to be registered in 5 other states (other than MD), but since they are not my place of buisness there is no need to list them all on my coorespondence and buisness cards. Seems to me the best thing to do is become registered in the state in which you work and include your buisness address on all coorespondence, documents and cards in which PE is used after your name.

 

[IRstuff]

hmm, seems to me that your other registrations would get a short shrift, in that case. If you were corresponding with a customer in one of those states, wouldn't you want him to know that you are licensed to practice in his state, particularly on letterhead?

TTFN

FAQ731-376