Usefull copyright material on line 2

[KENAT]

I just came across virtually all the ASME Y14 series stds posted on line. Also the global DRM.

Now I'm pretty sure this isn't' meant to be freely available to anyone with an internet connection for no charge.

I already forwarded a link to the site to ASME if they want to take action.

Also, as much as I'd like to I'm resisting the urge to save or print a copy of it (at least the ones I don't more or less legitimately have).

I'm also resisting the urge to share the website with others that may find it useful.

Am I just being too darn ethical for my own good here? Most here normally take the high road - at least on this forum, am I for once living up to this?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[Ron]

Kenat...I've been reading your posts for a long time. For all your jocularity, bluster and BS; doing the right thing is not foreign to you. Way to go.

 

[patprimmer]

Ron

Shuuuush. He doesn't want to get a good name you know.


Regards
Pat
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[PeterStock]

Good for you Kenat.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[patprimmer]

KENAT

You did the right thing and the only thing you could possibly do here.

Regards
Pat
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[ColonelSanders83]

I download such standards all the time. But they maintain a short residency on my computer.

I happen to be a young engineer just starting out and it often tends to be difficult to tell if th standard has the information I need or not. Since technical book stores are a thing of the past, this tends to be a good way to preview the merchandise before I buy it.

Over the past 6 months I have easily purchased approximatley $5000 worth of standards. Approximatley half of which I previewed before purchase.

Once I'm sure the standard has what I need I have no problem paying for them and deleting the pirate copy (I like the bound hardcopy and the simplicity of document control that goes with it).

You have indeed done the ethical thing, however your move is an excersise in futility, due the foriegn repositories of all engineering standards readily found online.

A question properly stated is a problem half solved.

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!

http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/

 

[ColonelSanders83]

I would also like to note that those who use copywrited information downloaded from the internet are taking an awfull risk.

There is no garuntee that the files have not been tampered with by the unscrupulous (another very good reason I like bound harcopy's direct from the publisher)

A question properly stated is a problem half solved.

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!

http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/

 

[rowingengineer]

Kenat,
Sounds like your being ethical (on the high road), however I wouldn't worry about forwarding the sites to anyone else, if they wanted them and knew anything about searching the net they could find it off their own steam.

I think you would be forgiven for taking a copy yourself, while it would be unethical, truth of the matter is that I can't hold it against you, as I know I have at least one burnt copy of DVD, and so dose half the world. However if you were to use this new found source of info for more than personal use but to gain a commercial advantage, well that is a different ball game.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[btrueblood]

Kenat,

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

<ducking and running>

Have a good weekend.

 

[patprimmer]

I wonder if anyone who owns copyright on material would be tempted to load corrupted copies onto pirate sites so anyone trying to steal their property will regret it. I suspect they may.

Even if we think we are justified in stealing copyright (I feel Microsoft still owes me for products that failed to deliver) still should not promote that idea here as it is illegal and brings this site into disrepute and undermines us if we complain about others stealing our copyright.

Regards
Pat
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[Ron]

Uploading an intentionally corrupted or incorrect copy by the author or owner would be as egregious as downloading an unlawful copy of the copyrighted document.

 

[bvanhiel]

Actually, I think it's worse. If someone got hurt and the corrupted standard was the source....

 

[patprimmer]

Does that mean if someone owning copyright is going to corrupt the data, they should make the standard higher.

I know it is wrong, but there still seems to be some poetic justice in setting up a thief in that way.

Regards
Pat
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[MacGyverS2000]

Pat,

I get your point, but how poetic is it to the people killed through no fault of their own but being unlucky enough to walk into a building designed by a thief?

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

I did say I know it is wrong and I did say should the corruption make the std higher.

Regards
Pat
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[jmw]

Pat's point and that of ColonelSanders83:

Some original maps have deliberate faults such as an extra road included where there is none. It helps the owners identify fraudulent use of their maps by people too lazy to do their own surveys.
The addition of false roads, a cul de sac somewhere in a housing estate for example, is relatively harmless since no one will be looking for something that isn't there. The lazy ones have no idea which roads are real or not and include them all.

That won't work here because the site is offering the original material and not alternatives which would have no value.
But I assume that such organisations must be alert to piracy and must have some mechanisms to protect themselves. Sadly, there are not enough Kenat's around for that to be sufficient by itself, there will always be those who will happily use pirated material.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SAITAETGrad]

Pat,

If they did put out a falsified document, it would be widely distributed not to a single individual but to a great many and would soon challenge the distribution of the legitimate standard. Most people don't pay for standards (regardless of ethics)- never have. Let's keep the discussion within the realm of reality.

Even if you go into the large OEMs of automobiles, aircraft, etc. you will find that they all use each others documents. You will also notice that each OEMs methods and notation closely matches that of the competition. As a result, products are safer and the public good is served. I'm not saying that their actions are entirely ethical, but that's how the western world works.

There is a certain naivete in this thread. The truth is that copyright laws often work against the greater good of society.

Pragmatically, what is required is reform of these national organizations. Instead of charging fees they don't need, make the information publicly available for the greater good of society and eliminate barriers for small business. A public-private partnership should be explored to truly democratize these organizations.

In their current form, they represent a market failure!

Wouldn't working towards putting the information in the hands of the people be the truly ethical action? After all, the experts put their time and effort towards these standards in the spirit of industry wide cooperation.

 

[patprimmer]

Every organisation I ever worked for will buy standards when they need one.

They will make copies so that several individuals within that organisation can work together on the same project.

They will also copy portions to send to suppliers if the supplier has to meet a standard.

I think this all comes under the heading of fair use, or fairly close to it.

Downloading the entire document without ever having purchased an original is piracy and cannot be condoned here in a public forum.

I have been around quite a while and worked for quite a few companies and even served on a few standards committees.

I think my experience in this regard is pretty normal so it is far from naive to expect it happens like that.

Regards
Pat
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[patprimmer]

I do agree that standards should be produced by committees based on volunteers from several sectors and should be administered and published by a publicly funded organisation and should be freely available, but the facts are, this is not how it is.

Regards
Pat
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[jmw]

In my last company the engineering department was responsible for the maintenance of standards.
They kept a register and operated like a library with anyone who needed the standard signing out a copy and singing it back in.
If anyone needed a copy already out then they would chase it up but some people ended up with the standard on almost permanent "loan" from engineering resources.
Of course people would take first generation copies but not for distribution.
I got choked off pretty severely when I asked for a photocopy because the original was out somewhere. Now you may argue that your organisation has paid for the knowledge not a particular copy and therefore internal copying is OK. In the end the only true guidance is that given by the standard and the terms and conditions of purchase.

On the other hand, many standards have a limited recommended life and are frequently revised so new copies do have to be purchased every four-five years or so, in theory.
The reasons for new issues isn't simply revenue generation and the changes are rarely just for the sake of it.
But, the production of a standard costs money. It should be paid for else we may find a diminishing number of organisations paying the costs for trivial updates and a for standards that no longer can be maintained current or valuable.

In the end you get what you pay for.
If you want standards that have value then they have to be paid for.
Photocopies are convenient and we can always justify making a copy for expediency but I bet few people destroy the copy when done. Though in a few years it will be out of date anyway.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com